prop head mod

[no_doz]

how much hp/ power does this add? (i want to have this mod done to my 86 R with a 275cc ct racing cylinder-the national porting kit-).

[ridetrikes250R]

prop. head mod??? do you mean properly done head mod???? cause they ussaully mill your head and squish band it. adds a few horses depending on how high you mill it to. you ussaully dont see big gains till you hit the 110 115 high octane.
adam

[ridetrikes250R]

also you only get full power out of it if you match the compression with your porting... .i say mill and squish band to 21cc's and hold on, you can run that on 91 or run in 110 for alittle more ponys
adam

[no_doz]

thats not what i mean, this mod

http://www.hollywooddirtonline.com/motor.html

Hollywood Dirt Productions 'Prop' head mod

[Rex Karz]

Reminds Me of those things they sell on the AM radio during the Art Bell show: "A Guaranteed 25% mileage increase, installs in seconds with no tools needed !", "Coming up, General Johnson Jamison tells about his encounter with an Alien Spaceship and his Rectal Probe!"

[no_doz]

not really because i know some mechanics and according to them that helps atomize the fuel and give more power, but im curious if anyone here has actually had this done or knows anything about it on an R.

[Rex Karz]

I would think that after the fuel has passed into and out of the crankcase, through the ports and into the cylinder it would be thoroughly atomized.

[bones200x]

I could see that on a 4 stroke. Because the piston draws in fuel mixture. On a 2 stroke, the mixture comes from bottom of piston (forced up). In other words. The fuel mixture on a 2 stroke makes too many turns. It comes through carb. Goes to bottom of crankcase. Forced on top of piston, then compressed.
BUT... That is just my OPINION!!
On a personal note. I like the "quick horsepower" that 2 strokes make. But I am a 4 stroke man.I like torque down low. Especially in trails. But in the desert....2 strokes are faster and better.

[my90rulz]

Originally posted by bones200x
I could see that on a 4 stroke. Because the piston draws in fuel mixture. On a 2 stroke, the mixture comes from bottom of piston (forced up). In other words. The fuel mixture on a 2 stroke makes too many turns. It comes through carb. Goes to bottom of crankcase. Forced on top of piston, then compressed.
BUT... That is just my OPINION!!
On a personal note. I like the "quick horsepower" that 2 strokes make. But I am a 4 stroke man.I like torque down low. Especially in trails. But in the desert....2 strokes are faster and better. forced onto of piston wtf?? the fuel is "sucked" so to speak through the transfer ports by the vacume created from the piston moving down, as for the prop mod id go for it, it WILL help the air/fuel mix togeather beter which will provide a better cleaner burn which will creat more horsepower.....look at ANY high performance drag engin on anything and everything is swirl polised similer to this to better mix the fuel/air...

[Rex Karz]

Originally posted by my90rulz
forced onto of piston wtf?? the fuel is "sucked" so to speak through the transfer ports by the vacume created from the piston moving down, as for the prop mod id go for it, it WILL help the air/fuel mix togeather beter which will provide a better cleaner burn which will creat more horsepower.....look at ANY high performance drag engin on anything and everything is swirl polised similer to this to better mix the fuel/air...

Vacuum created by the piston moving down ? Actually the cylinder is under pressure for most of the trip down, what do you think is making the piston go down??:doh: Don't forget about the reed valves, remember the crankcase is under pressure as well as vacuum. But that doesn't really mean much, it is a differential that creates flow. My question is about your underlying assumptions that the fuel is not properly atomized, and that further atomization results in increased horsepower. Is it a valid assumption ? Will a more or less atomized fuel/air mixture cool the machine as well? I'm not by any way saying the head works or doesn't work, just trying to gain a better understanding of the 2-stroke engine. I find them fascinating!

[no_doz]

all of the shopowners around here (they mainly focus on truck engines but still) say that the more you atomize the fuel, the more even combustion/burn you get, increasing hp. it also apparently allows for air to be mixed more properly the further the gas is atomized (always a good thing).

[Oldschoolin86]

Originally posted by Rex Karz
Reminds Me of those things they sell on the AM radio during the Art Bell show: "A Guaranteed 25% mileage increase, installs in seconds with no tools needed !", "Coming up, General Johnson Jamison tells about his encounter with an Alien Spaceship and his Rectal Probe!"
Exactly what I was thinking! Just like the atomizer this looks like crap. The only think this helps is thier sales. If you make something different and have a good pitch for it, your gonna sell it to someone even if it is junk.

[jenndnn3]

No Doz I would try it with spare head and carb. It is certianly intriguing huh. That way you can really judge the difference. I wouldnt knock this one. I certianly be curious as well. Looks like none of us have tried it. I would research as well. I think your gonna find more info in whom you been talking to then on these message boards.

[no_doz]

hahaha thats what im starting to see, considering half the people that repsond compare this to a fuel economy device placed in the airbox of a truck or car.

[Oldschoolin86]

Originally posted by no_doz
hahaha thats what im starting to see, considering half the people that repsond compare this to a fuel economy device placed in the airbox of a truck or car.
:doh: Your getting these compairison responces because they are both just as useless.

[Dan10]

I would think that the carb rifling would have a greater effect on fuel atomization than the prop mod.

[no_doz]

have you even had this mod, or are you talking out of your ass?

[Rex Karz]

Originally posted by no_doz
btw, i always act like i know what im doing, but i usually dont just a little honesty for ya.

[ridetrikes250R]

i think from lookin at it that they are trying to get the same effect out of that as milling the head and squish banding it, that looks like its suppost to stir up the mixture, looks just like a fancy milled head with a weird type of squish band.
adam

[no_doz]

Originally posted by Rex Karz
yea im just talking out of my ass, sorry guys.

[bones200x]

MY90RULZ.......on a 2 stroke..there is no suction (much thereof) The force of the piston forces mixture onto top of piston. When the piston goes up on compression ..it does suck in then...the fuel/oil sets in bottom of cranckcase..
But to get the fuel into the cylinder...the piston moving down creates pressure...closes reed valves..fuel is blocked..has to travel ports to top of piston...
If I am wrong tell me.....
4 strokes has a INTAKE stroke..that is suction.
But what I said about swirlling the mixture on a 2 stroke cylinder wouldn't make alot of difference. That was my OPINION!
Thanks REX For saying the same thing...I had to add this part. I re read the whole thread....

[my90rulz]

Originally posted by bones200x
MY90RULZ.......on a 2 stroke..there is no suction (much thereof) The force of the piston forces mixture onto top of piston. When the piston goes up on compression ..it does suck in then...the fuel/oil sets in bottom of cranckcase..
But to get the fuel into the cylinder...the piston moving down creates pressure...closes reed valves..fuel is blocked..has to travel ports to top of piston...
If I am wrong tell me.....
4 strokes has a INTAKE stroke..that is suction.
But what I said about swirlling the mixture on a 2 stroke cylinder wouldn't make alot of difference. That was my OPINION!
Thanks REX For saying the same thing...I had to add this part. I re read the whole thread.... yes thats what i was saying, just the way you put it was urm confusing so to say? i dunno thats what i was trying to get across, as for the fuel being poorly atomized, its not that, but it can always be mixed better,,,, it WILL help the fuel atomize better creating a cleaner burn.....which in turn will make more power...becuse more fuel is burned,

[Rex Karz]

I still think it is a fallacy to think that "more" atomization means "more" power. At what point is the fuel "completely atomized" ? Where are the dyno tests? Why don't they have rifled carbs, heads on race bikes or cars? OK, I'm done on this topic. Next.

P.S. Children, If You want to forge a "quote" and attribute it to Me, at least spell and punctuate it properly. Helps in the believability department.

Don't make Me bust out these bad boys again !!!
http://a712.g.akamai.net/7/712/225/1d/www.eastbay.com/images/products/large/6143317_l.jpg

That's Right! (http://www.gotwavs.com/cgi-bin/mp3s.cgi?Napoleon_Dynamite=yourimage.mp3)

[no_doz]

never! hahaha

[LonesomeTriZ]

I had that very same head on my Blaster. I can not say for sure if it makes a difference or not because I had a lot of other mads done at the same time.

[jenndnn3]

Ok Boys I dont think it is not wise to be editing or putting words in others mouth! So dont make me break out the yardstick here. :nono:

Nodoz, I think it is a good question, but again go to those whom actually have this mod. only they really can answer your question. The mod itself actually looks fairly inexpesive in comparisons to the other mods out there, that are "proven". I am a person whom also looks into other avenues rather then follow the crowd. If this truley helps burn fuel better, then it is a gain. The question, then would be I have gain, is cost worth the amount of gain? No one but you can answer that. If you do try this, I would love to hear the results.

[Oldschoolin86]

Originally posted by jenndnn3
Nodoz, I think it is a good question, but again go to those whom actually have this mod. only they really can answer your question.
I'm gonna have to disagree here. This question only requires common sence.

[jenndnn3]

Then useing your best common sense answer, tell me why this mod would not work?

[Oldschoolin86]

Gladly Jenn,

First off, with the way the air/fuel mix runs through that motor, a prop design like that has an absolutly zero chance of promoting flow. When the air/fuel mix goes into the cylinder it's much the same action as opening a door on a tightly sealed house, a prop on the "wall" has no chance of helping direct the flow. The only angle they could be working on this (besides offering something different) is a tighter chamber. Anytime you up the compression from stock your gonna get more power, even if it does look like a prop.

Second, I haven't checked the numbers lately (sarcasm), but I think Honda, Yamaha and all the other big boys have a tad bit more R&D money (sarcasm again) and a lot more to loose/gain from engine technology. If this was the trick, we'd see it in superbike by now and other sports.

Third, gimmicks sell. People always want something different and someone will always offer it. I love new technology and keep my eyes wide open for it but this prop deal is just a gimmick to help thier sales. I say good for them for finding a way to boost sales. I highly doubt you'll loose any peak hp with this mod but you'll loose money compaired to a normal head mod.

I have a lot of respect for you Jenn and don't want to start anything with you. Please don't take my answer as trying to start anything. I just look at this product an know it's a gimmick. Maybe it's common sence or maybe it's experience, IDK.

[jenndnn3]

Oh heck no, I just want a straight answer instead of it wont work. I know I get extremely fustrated in asking a mod question, and I get it wont work. I love to hear why, the whys separate the truley braindead from the truley I know what I am talking about. Basic answers that truley dont answer the question really is to me as the term talking out your ass. With that being said this is in no way an insult to anyone, just an explianation of why I push the button sorta speak.

I see what you are saying, I can understand where you are coming from now that we have a base to build a discussion from. So basically your saying once the mixture hits the cylinder its mixing is pretty much done? IT sits waiting for its time to burn. I would almost agree with that except I would like to see some results first hand. There is still one stroke to do some work. I am with Dan as well the more I think about this, the carb rifling. I also think a four stroke would do better, if it does indeed mix at the head then say a 2 stroke, only because 4 stands a little longer chance of the mixing. Another thing I see is fuel effenciecy. I see this more as a fuel effecient mod over a hp gain mod. AGIAN with that being said, I have absolutly no experience in this particular mod and/or mods. Therefore would be talking out my :booty: I am indeed very curious to see its results.

Gimmicks come and go. the ones that stay are the ones that work.

[YAMAHONDAMAN]

TRINTY Does the "Turbo Head" Mod but there Swirl Thingy's are alot closer together on the "squish"..Riretrikes would know about that... iv'e tried them and didn't notice any HP Gain ..BUT THEY LOOK COOL !!!

[ridetrikes250R]

thanks for the mention yamahondaman, anyways, trinity does a squish band mod is the name for it. its a BUNCH of little lines about 2cm in length and they surround the ouside ring of the dome... iam posting a pic so we arent all confused, trinity racing finds this to add about 3 horses when milled with it. it also "improves" gas mileage, as i havent seen any numbers that way i have heard it makes a more efficent combustion (thats y horses and how fuel effecent it is increases) when sparked.
adam

[LonesomeTriZ]

Hey, that is pretty cool.

[250sx]

how much THAT cost? :cool:

[ridetrikes250R]

about 150 with mill job... its pretty cool i might have it done in the end of the summer... also note that they will NOT do this to a cool head because the cool head doesnt have enough material on the dome to be squish banded
adam

[350XXX]

Originally posted by Oldschoolin86

I'm gonna have to disagree here. This question only requires common sence.

OK, explain this away with your common sense(proper spelling). when a normal head is in place on an engine and the gas/oil/air is compressed prior to ignition how would the air flow?


it would flow up until it hits the dome of the head shoot across the dome and slightly upward untill it hits the opposite side of the dome then cause turbulance in all directions.

with the prop head or the trinity mod as the air/fuel mixture flows up the head it is directed so that it takes a more controlled flow inside of the cylinder thus creating better mixing of the air/fuel mixture. thus cleaner more effecient burning.

just so you know, this technology is used all over the world in power plant steam turbines, jet turbines and hydro electric plants.

think about that, it just make common sense!

[Oldschoolin86]

Originally posted by 350XXX


OK, explain this away with your common sense(proper spelling). when a normal head is in place on an engine and the gas/oil/air is compressed prior to ignition how would the air flow?


it would flow up until it hits the dome of the head shoot across the dome and slightly upward untill it hits the opposite side of the dome then cause turbulance in all directions.

with the prop head or the trinity mod as the air/fuel mixture flows up the head it is directed so that it takes a more controlled flow inside of the cylinder thus creating better mixing of the air/fuel mixture. thus cleaner more effecient burning.

just so you know, this technology is used all over the world in power plant steam turbines, jet turbines and hydro electric plants.

think about that, it just make common sense! LMAO, you crack me up dude! You compair apples to oranges after you fail to read my next couple post. Jenn already asked me the same question and I answered why it's common sence. Go back and read a little more if you want to know what I said. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[YAMAHONDAMAN]

Hey RideTrikes..What Yr. 250-R Head is That and iv'e allway's wondered why Honda Did the Domes and Squish Area Diff. From "85" to "89".. I Think they "de-tuned" them after "87" cause the "85" Dome and Squish seemed Better in Mid. and Top Power..( pending on How Much was Taken off the Top )

[LonesomeTriZ]

I have a stupid question. I have heard the term "squish" a lot in the past. What exactly does it mean? How is it gauged or measured, and how can I use it in my own builds and hop ups?

[350XXX]

Originally posted by Oldschoolin86
LMAO, you crack me up dude! You compair apples to oranges after you fail to read my next couple post. Jenn already asked me the same question and I answered why it's common sence. Go back and read a little more if you want to know what I said. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

re read my post again, then again, and if your hard headed, again. now picture what i have said in your head, draw a picture if it helps and tell me how you addressed what i posted in you previous post. all you said is the only thing that you see that might help is a tighter chamber. thats not an explanation. thats just your opinion. i'm not for or against this mod, just would like a straight answer, not "its just common sence it wont work". thats the same thing jenn asked for, and you never did that. :thumbsup:

[Oldschoolin86]

Originally posted by 350XXX


re read my post again, then again, and if your hard headed, again. now picture what i have said in your head, draw a picture if it helps and tell me how you addressed what i posted in you previous post. all you said is the only thing that you see that might help is a tighter chamber. thats not an explanation. thats just your opinion. i'm not for or against this mod, just would like a straight answer, not "its just common sence it wont work". thats the same thing jenn asked for, and you never did that. :thumbsup: :ugh: Holy crap, are you okay man? I already posted everything your asking for a couple weeks ago.

[ridetrikes250R]

Originally posted by YAMAHONDAMAN
Hey RideTrikes..What Yr. 250-R Head is That and iv'e allway's wondered why Honda Did the Domes and Squish Area Diff. From "85" to "89".. I Think they "de-tuned" them after "87" cause the "85" Dome and Squish seemed Better in Mid. and Top Power..( pending on How Much was Taken off the Top )
well you are correct in a sense, the 85-86 had a different dome and squish for a different piston (which is still considered a better piston), also they were different because they were short rod motors that screamed to 9K RPMS off the show room floor and needed a different dome and RPM range for the power band,the 87-89 are long rod motors, which has a different style piston but is alot different then the 86 piston. I can honestly tell you i dont know which head that is (one in pic)... but i do know trinity mills and squishes them the same way and to the same measurements when they do their mod. I do know that many times the long rod guys will take 86 and 85 R cylinder head and piston and use them with a spacer plate for more bores and if you just do the swap with no porting or nothing, it makes them run alot better and have a more all around power band, respectable low end, really strong mid and a nice top-end but the logn rod motor still revs slower, and for a stronger cylinder when going to porting and other styles of power adders. the 87-89 they sorta thinned out the cylinder walls and also these are the cylinders known for over heating and warping with 295 kits, 85 or 86 iam now learning hold up better to the added stress. as for measurements and stuff i dont know that...
adam
p. s (ok got some measurements)
also when you say 85 heads worked better for mid to top, are you talkin about using a 87 cylinder? with the 85 86 head, cause i do believe the clearences are different, i do kow that a 85, 86 cylinder, head, and 86 style piston with plate, will make a 87-89 motor scream! but thats also because the ports are different and again like stated the squish and dome is different, i called my buddy DJ at trinity and he did say the trx250R was 22cc and 85-86 were 21cc, he said that it was mainly the ports, cylinder thickness, and domes made the difference, the whole reason honda "detuned them" was they felt they needed more torque off the line, and with suzuki makin a LT250R with a PV honda had to compete with the low-end of that motor, by making the rod longer, this increased crank case volume, allowing for more low end torque.
adam

[ridetrikes250R]

oops sorry this was a repost

[Rex Karz]

Originally posted by LonesomeTriZ
I have a stupid question. I have heard the term "squish" a lot in the past. What exactly does it mean? How is it gauged or measured, and how can I use it in my own builds and hop ups?

According to Dale Alexander:
The squish band is the area along the outside edge of the head that is more or less flat or matches the angle of the crown of the piston closely. Its purpose is two fold: 1) it acts to create a mixing of the charge as it is compressed by the piston. This helps to make a more homogeneous mixture that burns faster with less ignition advance. And 2) when properly set up, the squish band acts to cool the charge and the end gases to help eliminate detonation. THIS is the really important aspect of the squish band as it relates to a two-stroke.

It acts to cool the charge. Weren't we just wondering where all this damaging heat was coming from? I've looked at a ton of pistons and noted early on that a lot about heat can be learned by turning the piston upside down and looking at the area under the crown on the inside of the piston. Good running bikes had a very light brown color that was glossy. Better running bikes had a much larger area that covered the entire underside of the crown and was much darker in color, but still glossy. On bikes that didn't run that hard, this area had turned flat black.

From an excellent article: The Art of Squishing Things Till They Give (Power), Part 1

by Dale Alexander

found here:http://www.geocities.com/rssarma/articles/dale_1.htm

[YAMAHONDAMAN]

Hey REX... That Link Was COOL !!!

[LonesomeTriZ]

Now that was very informative.