clutch problem

[Dale350X]

Anybody know why clutchs in a 350X will not pull until warmed up. I first crank it and its like you have to push it off, it will barely move. After about 20 mins. they work perfectly. They have been doing this since put in new. They now have less than 5 hours on them.

[Rex Karz]

Sounds to me like it is worn out.

[Dale350X]

They are brand new clutchs that dont have 5 hours on them.

[bones200x]

Sounds like basket not seated properly. Possible clutch cable out of adjustment?
Usually clutches slip when HOT. I say tear down and recheck everything. It can't be good for the clutches. Slipping that bad.

[dads]

are you talking you can't pull the lever till it warms up????

[Rex Karz]

I have heard about clutches that have gotten oil "stained" from just sitting non-use. Maybe that is what is going on here? Pleas give a description of all what has been done, that should help.

[FlyingW]

Hey Bones, I have to ask the stupid question, did you soak the clutch plates in oil before installing them?

[likestrikes]

Did ya file all the grooves out of the outer basket?? Every 350X basket I've seen is grooved up quite a bit....

[Dale350X]

yeah, i checked the basket for grooves before installing, i have adjusted the cable and that didnt help and it is brand new by the way and the whole bike is pretty much new i have replaced almost every thing possible down to the bolts and needle bearings in the swing arm with OEM parts, i did soak clutchs before install, and no i dont have a problem with the lever. Could it possibly be the springs over tightened? i am some what weary about if my torque wrench was reading correctly. I went purely "by the book" when installing. Thanks for the replies though.

[FlyingW]

Dale, did you replace anything in the clutch assembly other than the plates. Did you use the same clutch cover? I understand the problem but the cause obviously isn't clear so we have to eliminate possibilities.

[jenndnn3]

What else was replace inside as well, anything internaly engine wise?

My dumb question (so sorry to ask) what oil you useing?

[dads]

if I have it right you pull the lever but the discs don't disinguage till the oil worms up.

[Dale350X]

I replaced the clutch plates, fibers, and springs. I didnt replace the clutch cover. As far as internally in the engine, the entire top end is new. Including a brand new jug and rocker cover, piston, valves, etc. The bottom end is not new and nothing was replaced in it. The oil is Honda oil, not sure of the weight, the mechanic who built the motor gave me the oil. As far as the lever, when initially cranked and you pull the lever in and shift to first and release the lever it barely pulls, then after about 20 to 30 mins. the clutchs work perfectly and pull very strong.

[jenndnn3]

Ok with that, I am going to lean or isolate oil first...Viscosity changes... things move internally oil finally moves around.....

I am having a hard time believeing something is wrong with the clutch itself since it works fine after a time... But I could be wrong...

2 Things,
is too low?
And what else is in it?
My thinking is this, somewhere along the line the oil start to work.. When warm.

If you have water in it or it is too low it is taking its sweet time to get to working.

I am sure the mechanic gave you the right oil.. So we can rule that out as well.. It would surprise me if it was wrong but mistakes do happen...

I would Drain myself, and take a look at it. IT can tell alot...

I would also make sure you have plenty of it in...

[Dale350X]

I check oil before I ride anything including my lawn mower. It isnt low. Could it possibly be the oil pump, or the type of oil? I would think the oil pump would work regardless of temperature though. Before the rebuid I always used Castrol synthetic 10w 40.

[dads]

Not the oil pump that would have take the top end out by now.
I would change oil. Kind of sound like an antyfriction oil when cold.

[FlyingW]

At this point, I would drain the oil and tip the trike on its left side and pull the clutch cover. Disassemble the clutch basket assembly and reassemble it again. Go back to the oil your used to using. This one's got us stumped?????? The fact that it starts working after it's thoroughly warmed up is strange. Usually when a clutch fails to operate normally, the problem is pretty consistant cold or hot.

[HondaYamaha rider]

Kinda sounds like a customers trike that I had a few years back (Honda 350X, manule clutch, not shure what year, to long ago:ugh: ) Anyway he just did a complete clutch rebuild and it had the same sysmtoms as yours. It just wouldn't pull untill about 1/2hr of working (or driving, all in the way you look:D) It ended up being the oil was too thick (it was Honda oil, but it was for a trike with a auto clutch, not manule). Being it is a new motor, I would run AMSoil 0W-50 in it. Best breakin, and everyday runing oil I have ever used :yup: Also helped with the torque of the motor (it would pull REAL HARD around 3K or so) so I would try oil change first, before teardown, but that is just my opion.

Hope you get it figured out :thumbsup:

HondaYamaha rider

PS> Keep us posted on this, If it isn't oil, I'd like to know what it is. Just incase if I ever get a trike with the same problem.
Thanks :thumbsup: And Good Luck:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[FlyingW]

I'd say to do what rider said. His reasoning sound logical. He's probably seen more weird crap than the most of us so what do ya have to lose?

[jasonb32]

did the basket have grooves wore into the tabs where the plates slide in???
were the metal plates burnt-?
it sounds like too thick of oil-or the springs are too weak- take it apart do it again -
sand the metal discs lightly with 400 grit paper to get rid of the burnt coating of oil on them,to make sure they grip properly

sounds like the oil has to heat up , and sounds like the metal plates are burnt

[jenndnn3]

How is this going Dale? Anything yet?

[Dale350X]

No not yet, havent got around to it yet. My life is pretty much working. Leave at dark get home at dark.:thmbsdwn: I post messages while on break and luncha at work. I am going to take back apart and reassemble and change to a different oil and put back together Saturday morning. Will let you know Saturday evening or Monday:D

[HondaYamaha rider]

Good Luck:thumbsup: I know that diagosing these problems can be very difficult:doh:
Anyway good luck:thumbsup: and keep us posted:thumbsup:

HondaYamaha rider

[dads]

Best way to go. and wash the clutchs.

[Dale350X]

Just got it tore down. Noticed the basket part that has the gears attached to it on the back had grooves where the fiber clutchs touch the basket. Dont know if that will effect it. Question: Do you tighten the springs all the way down? If not how tight. I know manual says like 7-10 lbs. but I dont think my torque wrench is working correctly. And what do you mean by wash the clutchs? Do you mean take a cruber and wash them with soap and water? Sorry had to ask stupid question. Not much of a motor man. Just replaced the clutchs a few times and thats it. Having to stop on it for now, have to go to a b'day party for nephew. Bought him complete riding gear, boots, pants, shirt, gloves, goggles, he's gonna be stoked! Will let you guys know tommorrow.

[bones200x]

Make sur basket is not worn. Where the clutch plates ride. (NOTCHED)
Make sure the clutch basket is seated all the way down.
Some clutch outers( Where springs go) Has to line up with clutch center(splines mesh) That is what I was referring to.
What did you soak plates in? What type of oil?
Yes the spring bolts should be around 9 ft/lbs. NOT VERY MUCH TORQUE
Before putting side cover on. CHECK clearance between plates. SHOULD NOT BE ANY!!!. If they have clearance, you have same problem. FIX before putting back together.
I use 10w/40 Honda oil in all my off road engines. It is made to work with clutches. I don't rec. 20/50 , It is too thick. Car oil will work. It will hurt clutches in long run.(Example using Honda oil=3-4 years.....car oil=2-3 years.That is just an example. Car oil doesn't have additive for clutch plates)I used to use car oil until my friend proved to me. His clutches lasted almost twice as long, He rode harder than I did too.
Should be able to fix. Good luck.

[Dale350X]

Yeah the basket is worn from what i understand from your message bones. The basket were the clutches fit have grooves in it were it is notched out. The clutchs have about 1/16 of play in the notches. I soaked the clutchs in AMS oil 0w 40 synthetic 4 stroke oil. Someone earlier in the post recommened AMS 0w 50 couldnt find any of that though. And the basket is seated all the way down in the gears. I didnt think my torque wrench was working correctly so I bought a new one tonight. The last one had the springs tightened almost all the way down before it gave at 10 lbs. That may have been one of my problems itself. I also noticed my springs that I pulled out were shorter than the springs I pulled out for the old clutches. There is probably 1/4" difference. I will probably put the taller springs back in it. I will know if its gonna work in the morning.

[bones200x]

The springs will play a big part in it. They may not have enough holding pressure.
You could put a medium thickness flat washer behind old springs to tighten up some. I don't remember what size fits. doing that seemed to help some.

[FlyingW]

I would advise measuring your clutch springs. they should be 37.2mm but if they measure less then 36.2mm they should be replaced. This measurement will tell the entire story. The service limit on the spring free length is only 1 mm. Measure all your springs and select the ones that are between 37.2 and 36.2mm's. If they all fail then get some replacement springs.

[Dale350X]

Ok........first of all I need to borrow a BIG sledge hammer:bash: Maybe after I get done maybe the pieces will go back together and work better. I changed oil and tore clutch basket back apart and put back together. Bought a new torque wrench b/c my old one wasnt working properly. Everything is put together correctly according to the service manual. Still dont work properly. When I first got it together it did pull somewhat better at first. Still not like it should. Then I made a few stops just to check it, started same problem. Oh yeah by the way now the motor started leaking in 3 different places.:fire: :wtf: Now after spending over $1500 to try to get this as close to mint as possible I am almost ready to disassemble with a sledge hammer. The only thing I know I can do is buy another set of new clutchs and springs and try that.

[likestrikes]

No, don't start changing parts. I had mentioned the grooving in the basket allot of posts ago. Grooving will not allow a clutch to be smooth or it will "creep" when you sit in gear with the clutch pulled in.

If the springs are worn or not the right length, the clutch will slip. The springs function is to "sandwich" the friction plates to the steel inner plates. If the bolts are not torqued or loose, they will back out and hit the cover. The torque of those bolts has no affect on how the clutch works.

If I'm reading this right, you have a slipping problem as you said "have to push it off". So, something is preventing them from fully meshing together or slip. Unless you have some crazy oil, the oil isn't the problem. I have run plain old Valvoline in ALL my 4 strokes for 20 years and for one example, I have had my SX for 9 years with that oil and the motor is silent and perfect.

Did I read that you replaced the steel plates as well? There are a couple of surfaces in the clutch inner basket and backing plate that don't wear like the rest of it. Sometimes a raised ridge is found where the plates didn't run. I always stone that high ridge flat to ensure it doesn't affect the clutch action.

Other check - if you are sitting on the bike and you reach down to the arm on the clutch case top, can you fell a bit of freeplay when you try to actuate the clucth with your fingers? There has to be a bit of play or that can cause the clutch to slip. If you have play there at all times with the bars turned left or right then it is an internal problem and not external. Meaning it isn't the cable or perch but that play must be present at all times.

The inside stuff I mentioned above. I'd also make certain that the thrust washers are in the correct place and the proper thickness.

Don't just change parts. Take it apart again and stick it on a bench. EXAMINE every surface that could bind or prevent a full engagement from happening. If you think of it as a "sandwich" type action, there aren't too many things that can run and hide from your eyes. If it isn't external then something is preventing those plates from locking together.

I know your not a motor guy but just remember that that inner basket that holds the inside of the steel plates has to "lock" to that outer fingered basket with the fiber plates to create a positive link to the transmission main shaft. Just think about that while you look at it and think about what could be preventing it from doing it's job.

[Dale350X]

yeah i replaced the steel plates and fibers and springs. As far as the baskets you can tell they have wear on them. The basket that has notchs in it does have worn places in it. The basket that holds the steel plates does have some nicks on it also. So what you are saying is sand these "high" spots down?

[HondaYamaha rider]

Sounds like your basket is alittle worn (sorry don't know how to fix, but someone on this board does). The next time you take it apart, take the steel pressure plates (A.K.A. Steel Plates) off the trike and on a bench. Find a FLAT level and put in on the contacting part of the steel plates, and with a flashlight, look and see if you can see any light in between the plates. Mark these places (on both plates) Then with a feeler gauge, see how low the spots are from the level to the plates (if more than 0.005" You need your plates reservicing, but really should be no more than 0.003" for plate reservicing). I have seen some brand new plates warped, so you should check this "flatness" everytime you do a clutch job. Now, if they are flat, CHECK YOUR SPRING PRESSURE! At your local Honda Parts Dealer (or service center) they should have a tool to check your spring pressure at fully compressed size. If it is less than your book states (haven't done this in a while, so I forgot the spring pressure limits:ugh: ) you need a new spring (this also is for spring length, make sure it is within the limits. If there is 1/4" difference between springs, USE THE LONGER ONE, as long as it is within the limits. If it is still to short, buy a new spring). Also, as likestrikes said, check and make sure you clutch handle is relesing all the way. There should be alittle free play in the lever, If there isn't, readjust it so there is before you tear it back apart.

Hope you get this figured out :thumbsup: Good Luck:thumbsup:

HondaYamaha rider

PS> Keep Us Posted!!!

[jenndnn3]

There is so much good info here, that anyone having trouble with a clutch after replaceing this would be a good reference... Very awesome write-up guys... :hail:

Dale I completely understand the frustration, and have taken a hammer to many things. (Though not recommened :lmao: ) It has been known to cure a few tempermental people, cars, and atv's... (just kidding) :bash:

I had the opposit problem you had 3 yrs prior, I tore my clutch to shreds an unknown amount of times. It simply would not release. Mine ended up being completly internal not anything to do with the clutch itself. I had gotten cheap, miced my internal engine bearings bought an "off brand" and took for granted they matched perfectly... They didnt. They were smidgeon too big (not even noticebale to a person not looking for this), off enough to lock my clutch up not allowing the release.. Lesson Tolerences do matter... I wouldnt use this in your search for the cure of the clutch because it is completely seperate issue ( I had split mine) Just a story to make you smile...

I concur with the dont change parts just yet... Other then I like gut instinct... Springs, your gut keeps leading you there. You are worried and have mentioned on some occasion those springs. So to shut the gut up I would consider them... (I have found gut is usually correct!) But that is just me... There is some very good trouble shooting advice before you replace things. Please keep us updated...

[likestrikes]

yeah i replaced the steel plates and fibers and springs. As far as the baskets you can tell they have wear on them. The basket that has notchs in it does have worn places in it. The basket that holds the steel plates does have some nicks on it also. So what you are saying is sand these "high" spots down?

I'm not aware of your mechanical skills and I don't want to say "sand them down". Well, I'd never say sand them down because they need to be filed down to a point and then a fine stone finishes it up nicely.

Get or borrow a camera and take some shots and different angles of the high spots. And don't forget about the thrust washers, they have to be in there and in the right place too....

[Dale350X]

My mechanical skills I would say are non-existant. If I tear something down, I can put it back together though. I will try to get some pictures and post them. I did buy a new clutch basket. The one that has the "notches" in it that the fibers fit in. I couldnt pass it up and it being brand new. ($40) Since mine did have some grooves in it. I havent recieved it yet though. When you say thrust washers are you talking about the washer that goes behind the nut that you have to punch to keep the basket on. And the only other washer I know of is the one that goes over the bearings that press the springs. Thats the only washers that I know of. Thats the only ones that was in there the past 4 times I changed clutchs also. I am starting to thing that they are my clutch fibers, plates, and springs, concedering I have never used EBC, I have always used Versah. I am getting more parts in hopefully by Friday to put on Saturday. Since I did develop 3 oil leaks. Oh yeah and I put the part that goes on the kick starter shaft that is oval looking in front of the spring, I put that on wrong and broke a piece of the inside case. I heard it immediately bouncing around on the other side of the case. So now I get to break that side apart also and remove that. Seems like I'm tearing up more than I am fixing. I will have to get my manual out to see what is even on the other side of the motor. I will keep you guys posted. Thanks greatly for all the help!!

[dads]

# 19 is the washer you need in place.

[Dale350X]

Havent forgot to give you guys an update. Just been waiting on parts. My first order was canceled and didnt know until I called looking for the parts. So I had to reorder and rewait.:mad:

[Dale350X]

O.K. Finally got around to getting back to the clutch problem. Had to wait on parts and I moved also.:bash: I know some of you said dont replace parts, but the local Honda store here is about as helpful as a knife in a gun fight. I had the thrust washer the whole time. (#19) I just forgot about putting it in. So the parts I replaced where the outside clutch basket, springs, and a new #19 thrust washer. I am starting to get a pretty good stock of used parts.:doh: I also bought a digital micrometer to check the thickness of the fibers and spring length. All those are in the limits according to the service manual. I did notice the metal plates looked like they were burnt, but this could be from them slipping until warmed up maybe. So to no avail I am going to take it to someone who does this for a living and have new clutchs installed once again. Maybe they can figure it out.

[Black Sheep]

I did notice the metal plates looked like they were burnt, but this could be from them slipping until warmed up maybe. So to no avail I am going to take it to someone who does this for a living and have new clutchs installed once again. Maybe they can figure it out.

if your plates are burnt they most likly are warped and no good. regardless of them being within spec.

the smartest thing you did was recognize your limitations and refure to a professional. Sometimes we as a people put our pride first and think we can do something without really nowing whats going on. the result is a long drawn out delema that any competent mechanic will figure out within 30mins.

good luck, and look at the bright side at least when its done you'll know its right and if its not you can take it back to him. although i doubt hell let it out his shop wrong.

[Dale350X]

Got an explanation for the clutch problem finally. I took it to a well know atv repair shop. They replaced the EBC clutch plates, fibers, and springs. They installed Barnett plates, fibers, and springs and they work perfectly. The Barnett clutch "catchs" a lot harder and you can tell they want to be fed horsepower! The mechanic said the EBC clutchs didnt seem to be burnt or in bad shape, so the only conclusion I have is that I will NEVER buy EBC again!!! The mechanic said he hadnt installed a lot of EBC. He said he always used Barnett or I believe he said Moose, but I'm not sure about that one.

[HondaYamaha rider]

Its good to hear that you got it going again:thumbsup:

Good luck and Happy Triken:thumbsup:

HondaYamaha rider

[Insane Rider]

There you go no substitute for good quality parts