short track kit & hand coned 250r pipe

[200x_Basket]

i no longer need these. :headbang:

http://motors.search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZ86Q5ftecateQ5fhunter

[Black Sheep]

" It is welded up and performs just like an original set of short track clamps"


there is more to the triple clamp then the steering stops removed. the forks are placed farther back and the angle of the stem is differant. The triple clamp is the main part to the kit. It is what makes the trike turn more. The differant gas tanks reason is only to clear the new triple. without the true triple all one would have is just a gas tank and not a true kit.

[willi84250r]

i got high bid on the s.t. kit

[200x_Basket]

bill

as far as i can tell they are the same. IF you have some proof post it up. otherwise it is just more hearsay and you have no proof.

that pic is at a weird angle. I have looked them both over and they are the same.

i did slide them over a set of forks one on top of the other. I then put a magnetic angle finder on the the stems. guess what? they were at the SAME angle.

[Black Sheep]

IF you have some proof post it up. otherwise it is just more hearsay and you have no proof.

they were at the SAME angle.


20yrs is not hearsay. if i had my 250R i would show you but since i don't you can take Honda's word for it.


this is the actuall booklet that comes with the Kit. Notice how they REPEATEDLY say it increases the STEERING ANGLE. Removing the stops increases the steering RADIUS.

[badchevelleman66]

"I found a near mint ATC 250r sitting in a barn where it had been for the last 12 years!!! I have to many projects so i will be parting it out. "

shame on you:upyours: :nono: :mad: :fire:

[200x_Basket]

I that book and the angle is right to left.

20 years means nothing, ever hear of bigfoot and the lock ness (spelling) monster?

[200x_Basket]

"I found a near mint ATC 250r sitting in a barn where it had been for the last 12 years!!! I have to many projects so i will be parting it out. "

shame on you:upyours: :nono: :mad: :fire:

$1500 and you can "save" it

[Black Sheep]

I that book and the angle is right to left.

20 years means nothing, ever hear of bigfoot and the lock ness (spelling) monster?


IF YOU CAN'T TELL THE DIFFERANCE ITS BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO.


the steering angel is front to back STEERING RADIUS IS side to side.

I HAD MY 250R FOR 20 Years AND YOUR TELLING ME THAT MEANS NOTHING. I had both the stock and complete kits. i had 3 of them.

since your on it. the radiator brakets are differant as well. I still have a BRAND NEW SET OF THEM.

[badchevelleman66]

you going to rampage??? is it the bike in pics???
any complete bike should not see the fate of parting out.... thats one less 3 wheeler in the world

[200x_Basket]

Bill

Since you have over 20 years experience with 250r's tell me who built that pipe!!!

[200x_Basket]

Bill

My rep speaks for its self and I have never scammed a soul. the info is in the sale and is honest. thanks for your opinion.

[hrc200x]

So if a person had a complete short track kit would it increase both the radius and angle?

[200x_Basket]

you going to rampage??? is it the bike in pics???
any complete bike should not see the fate of parting out.... thats one less 3 wheeler in the world

i wish i could be at the rampage. that would be a blast!!!

[hrc200x]

If angle was increased, woudn't they need to send a new upper clamp too so the upper and lower holes would line up?

[200x_Basket]

the rake is what bill is refering to. it would increase or decrease the wheelbase. the "ANGLE" the kit refers to is the "steering angle" or right to left.

[200x_Basket]

If angle was increased, woudn't they need to send a new upper clamp too so the upper and lower holes would line up?

yes you would. the change in the fork angle would move the forks forward or back at the upper tripple. they would not align.

[Black Sheep]

with that logic whats the need for Honda to build a whole new lower clamp??? owners could just remove the stops.

LOOK i could care less if you believe me or not.

[200x_Basket]

who ever modifed that triple did more then cut the stops out. they had to aluminum weld in new ones. that is beyond the average joe. that is why honda made new ones.
thanks again :)

BTW answer up on the pipe :2finger:

[Black Sheep]

if thier is no differance other then the stops the go measure the distance marked by the blues lines AND POST THE MEASUREMENTS AS YOU PUT A TAPE ON THEM

on the pipe STOP TRYING TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT AND AVERT THE ISSUE.

I'll give you your answer when you answer my question

[200x_Basket]

i tell you what bill. I will give you a chance to put your $$$ where your mouth is.

If the rake is different then the wheelbase would be different. You and I will each paypal a mutual party $50. I will swap the triples and mease the wheelbase with the stock clamps verses the short track clamps. If i am right i get your $50 and if you are right you get my $50.

[200x_Basket]

also as stated above siple physics rule out your opinion. if you changed the angle of the forks you would need a new upper clamp to match.

[Black Sheep]

i tell you what bill. I will give you a chance to put your $$$ where your mouth is.

If the rake is different then the wheelbase would be different. You and I will each paypal a mutual party $50. I will swap the triples and mease the wheelbase with the stock clamps verses the short track clamps. If i am right i get your $50 and if you are right you get my $50.


that would work except i don't have pay pal. but in the meantime how about you measure the distance i spoke of:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:

[Mr. Richard]

there is more to the triple clamp then the steering stops removed. the forks are placed farther back and the angle of the stem is differant.


ok i see,,, but i have to agree with basket,,, if you change anything on the location of the bottom clamp,,,,, how would it still line up wih the upper if it is in fact set to a predeterimned angle and radius????? simply,, it won't or its the same as a stock clamp,,, thats not an arguement its a fact,,,

[Rex Karz]

Bill

My rep speaks for its self and I have never scammed a sole.

A fish or shoe part?

[200x_Basket]

bill STFU :)

[200x_Basket]

A fish or shoe part?


huh :confused: :confused:

[Mr. Richard]

lol!!! just google sole you will see:thumbsup:

[hrc200x]

Doesn't the Honda shop manuals state the degree's of rake? I'd think they would followed suit and use the same words in their ST instructions.

As far as definitions go, Steering angle and radius are the same, rake is different.

[Black Sheep]

ok i see,,, but i have to agree with basket,,, if you change anything on the location of the bottom clamp,,,,, how would it still line up wih the upper if it is in fact set to a predeterimned angle and radius????? simply,, it won't or its the same as a stock clamp,,, thats not an arguement its a fact,,,


yes you are correct to a point BUT... there is more to it than that. HOLD ON i'm working on a diagram to show you how it works

[200x_Basket]

this should be good :)

[Rex Karz]

I'm going to go with the fish. With a laptop and touchpad it would be possible for a fish to bid on something. Without a tongue a shoe is pretty much unable to communicate. Don't worry, I won't tell a soul.

[Mr. Richard]

ok here is my take,,,, YOU have two paralell MACHINED SURFACES IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO MOVE EITHER AND STILL HAVE ALIGNMENT,,, so maybe the clamp is shaped different but those surfaces are exactly the same for the sake of alignment to eachother...........

[200x_Basket]

Rex

Gotcha,,, fixed it :)

[225]

The bottom is the only diff on the trees.Those tabs on a stocker where removed.Thats why the rad mounts are lower.This is so the upper steerer tubes don't hit the rads when you turn it right and left.


This is your second kit you are selling?

[Black Sheep]

bill STFU :)


i'm working on your answer try answering my question.

for the rest of you use common sense. what do i have to gain by exposing this VS. what does basket stand to lose by admiting he made a mistake.

MOTIVE GOES A LONG WAY


kasey you have no patience...:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[200x_Basket]

Kasey

that is right and no matter what the center of the upper clamp has to align with the center of the head tube. and the shaft is centered in the tube by the bearings. now try to angle the lower and the forks will never line up with the top.

[200x_Basket]

The bottom is the only diff on the trees.Those tabs on a stocker where removed.Thats why the rad mounts are lower.This is so the upper steerer tubes don't hit the rads when you turn it right and left.


This is your second kit you are selling?

i sold the other kit and this one is for sale now.

[200x_Basket]

Bill

even if you dont have a motive it does not make you right. I only want you to post some proof and quit spouting off at the mouth.

so far you have only proven me right. :doh:

[Mr. Richard]

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j80/foxgrl06/ist2_437828_giant_smiley_big_smile.jpg

[Black Sheep]

Bill

even if you dont have a motive it does not make you right. I only want you to post some proof and quit spouting off at the mouth.

so far you have only proven me right. :doh:


the fvck i haven't but then again you don't believe honda or anyone else for tht matter, you never have. you have always thought you were smarter then them.

[200x_Basket]

oh, i forgot you were a honda engineer back in the day, my mistake..... i hope you study up on some physics before you go back to work......................

[Black Sheep]

20 years means nothing,


nope :rolleyes: means nothing:rolleyes: HUH:rolleyes: ....lets see how many triple clamps you have designed:upyours: :upyours: :upyours:



oh, i forgot you were a honda engineer back in the day, my mistake..... i hope you study up on some physics before you go back to work......................


you might want to take your foot out of your mouth.

[200x_Basket]

ooooooo,,ahhhhhhhh,ooooooooo can i touch them?


WTF does that have to do with this topic?

[Black Sheep]

ooooooo,,ahhhhhhhh,ooooooooo can i touch them?


WTF does that have to do with this topic?

are you that blind??? what did your pipe have to do with anything??? it didn't!!! remember WE ARE talking about tripple clamps.

HOWEVER you did question my abilities and my expertise SO I MEARLY SHOWED YOU WHAT I HAVE DONE AND YOU HAVE NOT.

unless for some reason designing your own tripples is NOTHING. are your saying designing your own triples is irelevent in tripple clamp knowlege?




can you touch them. just you wait and see you just might be able to in march


since you haven't answered the measurement question here is a new one.


what does "gull wing" mean in triple clamp terms

[200x_Basket]

still waiting on the proof.

[Mr. Richard]

OK,, LETS GET BACK TO THE QUESTION AT HAND,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

how can the lower triple clamp be different and still maintain alignment with the stock clamp? maybe its shaped different which is a good possibility,,, because the stops are different,,, all the lumps and bumps might be different and probably are,,, BUT,, you cannot move the forks even a few thousands in any direction and have them still slide in the top clamp without binding,,,, so thats where we are now,,,,,, rebutle? :thumbsup:

[Black Sheep]

still waiting on the proof.



ok here you go.


while the drawing is exagerated and does not acuratly represent the honda clamp It does show you how you can change the steering stem angel and have the forks still line up.


NOW SMART ASS ANSWER JUST ONE of my questions.


you can't can you

[Mr. Richard]

maybe a good explanition would help cause i don't see where those lines do anything to change my mind

[200x_Basket]

that would not change the angle of the forks. even your drawing shows them in the same position

[Black Sheep]

ok that is a side view.


the question at hand was "how can you change the steering stem angel and still have the tubes line up".

simple change the angel of the end of the clamp were the tubes go in.


that would not change the angle of the forks. even your drawing shows them in the same position
when they turn in they "tuck in"


now i answered your question answer mine

[350X'inNY]

" It is welded up and performs just like an original set of short track clamps"


there is more to the triple clamp then the steering stops removed. the forks are placed farther back and the angle of the stem is differant. The triple clamp is the main part to the kit. It is what makes the trike turn more. The differant gas tanks reason is only to clear the new triple. without the true triple all one would have is just a gas tank and not a true kit.


Now looks like I joining the debate late, but the angle of the camera I agree alters the look of the steering stem, but the farther away the optic plane away from the camera, less distortion. The base of the triple tree is on the same horizontal plane, it would not distort the picture the way the lines are drawn on it, but in the DEPTH of the pic, as it is taken from above. SOOOOoooo... as a past Ceramic Engineer, Physics Professor and current Math instructor, I would have to say that the HRC triples have a greater angle, and NOT just the stops sawed off.

[Black Sheep]

SOOOOoooo... as a past Ceramic Engineer, Physics Professor and current Math instructor, I would have to say that the HRC triples have a greater angle, and NOT just the stops sawed off.



:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

[Black Sheep]

got to love it when the internet police show up



10:17 PM HondaATC500X Viewing Attachment
short track kit & hand coned 250r pipe

[Mr. Richard]

you can change alot of things ,,, BUT when you go to put the top clamp on,,,, and the angle is different it won't line up ,,,, if the fork tubes come out of the bottom clamp different it simply won't work,,,

example : the top clamp is set at say plus 3 degrees to the steering stem when bolted together,,, how can you change that? without putting it in a bind,,, it sets on a surface on the jam nut,, when tight is set at a predetermined angle that doesn't change so you can't jam the tubes in at a different angle,,,,, it just won't go,,,, so the easiest wat to prove this.....

bill take those clamps slide them on a set of forks and measure the tube centerline to the stem centerline and take a pict,,, to show the difference cause thats the only way we will be able to see

[Black Sheep]

you can change alot of things ,,, BUT when you go to put the top clamp on,,,, and the angle is different it won't line up ,,,, if the fork tubes come out of the bottom clamp different it simply won't work,,,

that is why the bottom of the clamp were the tubes go in is a change of plane





bill take those clamps slide them on a set of forks and measure the tube centerline to the stem centerline and take a pict,,, to show the difference cause thats the only way we will be able to see


what clamps??? mine??? they are on forks

[Black Sheep]

what i don't understand is this.

you don't believe me...thats fine. i could care less BUT, you also do not believe Honda...ok to each his own But a professor steps in and says same thing and you still don't believe it.


SO I give up. You either get it or you don't:doh: :doh: :doh:

[350X'inNY]

KASEY.... Who took that original pic? I'd like to see a recreation of that pic... ie.. same height, same above angle shot, etc; however, swap the order of the triples. (One on left, move to right, one on right swap to one on left). Be interesting to see if they "look" the same, or if the angle difference remains.

[Mr. Richard]

ok lets try this again,,,, with a stem without a lower clamp on it,,, put it in the frame just like it had a clamp on it,,, with bearings put the top clamp on and tighten it up,,, this is the stock location,,,, now slide the tubes in and tighten them up,,,, this is also the stock location with a imaginary bottom clamp (stock ) so now if you change ths bottom angle what happens?its going to be in a bind right??? the top clamp is not variable its fixed,,, so how the hell can you change the angle???

with a short track kit you can turn alot sharper because of more degrees of radius on the handlebars,,, the fork angle in a straight ahead position is not changed and the wheelbase is not changed.

[200x_Basket]

tomorrow i will slide both onto one set of forks and show you that they are the same angle.

Simple physics prove you are wrong but you are to dumb to see it. enjoy your night.

[Black Sheep]

tomorrow i will slide both onto one set of forks and show you that they are the same angle.

Simple physics prove you are wrong but you are to dumb to see it. enjoy your night.


funny i thought you said pictures don't give you an accurate picture.


still waiting on these relevant questions.

what is the difference between the two clamps at the blue line

AND

what is a "gull wing"

if i'm so wrong and your so right this should be simple for you.


BOTH of these questions are about YOUR 250R clamps

[Black Sheep]

Hello Billy:p N ice of you to drop by again:loser:

11:02 PM HondaATC500X Viewing Thread
short track kit & hand coned 250r pipe

whats the matter you miss me over at the banned and namless site:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[200x_Basket]

next bid makes reserve!!! i hope i am not over charging :)

[Black Sheep]

next bid makes reserve!!! i hope i am not over charging :)
remember there is no such thing as "bad" publicity:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[ScottZJ]

Remeber guys this is a for sale post, if there is need to debate, lets move a copy over to the fight club or tech section for more discussion so we dont stray off selling parts.:bitchfigh :chuckle:

[Black Sheep]

11:22 PM HondaATC500X Viewing Thread
short track kit & hand coned 250r pipe

you really do miss me don't you!!!:iluvu: :yup: :lmao:

[350X'inNY]

ok lets try this again,,,, with a stem without a lower clamp on it,,, put it in the frame just like it had a clamp on it,,, with bearings put the top clamp on and tighten it up,,, this is the stock location,,,, now slide the tubes in and tighten them up,,,, this is also the stock location with a imaginary bottom clamp (stock ) so now if you change ths bottom angle what happens?its going to be in a bind right??? the top clamp is not variable its fixed,,, so how the hell can you change the angle???

with a short track kit you can turn alot sharper because of more degrees of radius on the handlebars,,, the fork angle in a straight ahead position is not changed and the wheelbase is not changed.

I started punching some numbers, and making some liberties as I don't have a set of triples here, nor do I have a set for a 85-86R. Couple questions... again, I'm looking for facts and not trying to pick sides here...

1.) In the kit, is the bottom triple attached to the steering stem I assume?? or is it just the bottom cross bar included???

2.) What tolerances do you think HONDA had in their triple trees??


Just running some quick numbers.... If you kept the top triple fixed, but moved the bottom, say ¼ inch forward or back, how much of an angle difference would you see in the forks??

I made an assumpion that the triples are about 10" apart top and bottom.


Using the tangent function, and using the top as a fixed point, then the opposite or y would be the ¼" forward or back, and the adjacent or x would be the 10" distance between the triple trees.

tan-1(¼/10) = tan-1(.025) = 1.43º difference.

Now assuming MR HONDA knew that this would cause the forks to bind, he would compensate for upto half of this difference in the new bottom triple tree "pitch" for lack of a better word, so now your top triple tree is only seeing a 7/10's of one degree change...

Is that within manufacturing tolerances??? Not sure... this is assuming that the top triple is truely "fixed" in the same position as a stock triple setup.

Another scenero revolves around my first question about the steering stem itself...:thumbsup:

Bruce "Hondaline" Hartman

FYI --> (tan-1 means the same as arctan or basically working backwards from the right triangle side ratios to backcalculate the angle)

[350X'inNY]

Remeber guys this is a for sale post, if there is need to debate, lets move a copy over to the fight club or tech section for more discussion so we dont stray off selling parts.:bitchfigh :chuckle:

Good point Scott... wouldn't be a bad idea.. :headbang:

[350X'inNY]

Great..... either everyone went to bed or maybe my post is blowing some cobwebs off your Trig???

However... let me theorize yet some more.... Does not your steering stem go up through the frame... the top bar lays upon it, and then you tighten down the nut.... So guess what.... could it be possible for MR HONDA to also "tweak" a SLIGHT angle of the top triple too to tweak that 0.7º????

[350X'inNY]

I'm going to go brush my teeth.... I see alot of "online" lights... hopefully someone is still here besides me.... :headbang:

[Black Sheep]

Is that within manufacturing tolerances??? Not sure... this is assuming that the top triple is truely "fixed" in the same position as a stock triple setup.


well within Honda tollerances...

...but then Honda doesn't tell you to smash your frame rails to fit in a larger motor either:doh: :doh: :doh:

of course those will say i'm stupid so i usually refure to this...

[Black Sheep]

Remeber guys this is a for sale post, if there is need to debate, lets move a copy over to the fight club or tech section for more discussion so we dont stray off selling parts.:bitchfigh :chuckle:

your are correct. HOWEVER since the ad IS misleading i believe there is some responsibility for the truth to come out.

we are supposed to be looking out for one another. I did not try to turn this into a fight. i mearly pointed out a fact. my intention was to educate basket on the differance. it was in the response to that that turned this ugly.

most likly i'll be crusified for my input but at this point who cares. i am after all Black Sheep.

[badchevelleman66]

Remeber guys this is a for sale post, if there is need to debate, lets move a copy over to the fight club or tech section for more discussion so we dont stray off selling parts.:bitchfigh :chuckle:


I still dont like the fact hes parting a clean trike out............. i think he should be banned lol :D

[ScottZJ]

I believe a link to the added posts in another forum would work just fine for any potential buyers to see, instead of cloggin this one up.:)

[Black Sheep]

I believe a link to the added posts in another forum would work just fine for any potential buyers to see, instead of cloggin this one up.:)


11:51 PM HondaATC500X Viewing Thread
short track kit & hand coned 250r pipe


lets hope he can find his way:lmao: :chuckle: :lmao:

[Black Sheep]

two hours later...

10:17 PM HondaATC500X Viewing Attachment
short track kit & hand coned 250r pipe


12:11 AM HondaATC500X Viewing Thread
short track kit & hand coned 250r pipe


:lala: :lala: :lala:

[Black Sheep]

this was posted by Billy (HondaATC500X) over at the banned and nameless site.

and i quote..."I was told by someone that would have a good chance of it being true, that the reason Honda decided to go ahead and re-make the tanks after they discontinued the red ones was so when they (honda) built and designed the trx450R, they could look at and borrow some of the oldschool HRC design from the HRC short track 250R tank to incorporate into the 450R. What better way to get some design tips and ideas then looking back at what was top tier in the high roller racing days?"


sorry to burst your bubble but as someone who owned a 250R with the kit AND turned a 450R four wheeler into a three wheeler this is not true.

[dovesprings250R]

The trail is reduced on the short course kit. not sure how. It's more than tighter steering. It's clearly different (less trail) if you look at a good photo of a short course kit installed and a stock R. Somebody's got to have one on here..........just measure the trail. I'm sure it's different. That pipe looks just like the Ct I just got except it's black

[trikebandits]

THE CT 250R MAGAZINE ARTICLE ON THE MAIN SOURCE PAGE SAYS THE SHORT TRACK KIT CHANGES RADIUS AND GEOMETRY.
I DONT KNOW IF THAT HELPS OR JUST ADDS MORE TO THE FIRE!
:p

[Black Sheep]

thanks bandit,


200xbasket, Kasey, HRC200x, here is your proof.

[Rex Karz]

. I did not try to turn this into a fight.

Really? You might want to re-assess your methods of persuasion. In particular, your ad hominum attacks:



you might want to shut your mouth.


are you that stupid???

:demon:

[Black Sheep]

Really? You might want to re-assess your methods of persuasion. In particular, your ad hominum attacks::demon:

maybe you should re-read the whole thread before you make rash judgements.


post #4

IF you have some proof post it up. otherwise it is just more hearsay and you have no proof.

guess what? they were at the SAME angle.

that was a direct slap in the face

post#7



20 years means nothing, ever hear of bigfoot and the lock ness (spelling) monster?

another slap in the face. he's saying my 20yrs that include racing a 250R pro. working as a honda tech, And running severall race teams mean nothing

post #26
bill STFU :)

post #39
I only want you to post some proof and quit spouting off at the mouth.




OH WAIT REX Here comes the post i made your talking about!!!


post#43 was MY reply to his post#42



oh, i forgot you were a honda engineer back in the day, my mistake..... i hope you study up on some physics before you go back to work......................





you might want to shut your mouth.


he insulted my expertise in the field of tripple clamps SO I SHOWED HIM

[Rex Karz]

LIFK, but for Me to consider someone as an expert in triple clamps (LOL) one first has to be able to spell "triple".

The thing about your posts I find so amusing is how you are so easily baited into losing your composure. That and your horrendous spelling. :chuckle:

[Black Sheep]

In particular, your ad hominum attacks::demon:

i think you got me confused with someone else.
ever hear of bigfoot and the lock ness (spelling) monster?


Bill
Since you have over 20 years experience with 250r's tell me who built that pipe!!!


oh, i forgot you were a honda engineer back in the day, my mistake..... i hope you study up on some physics before you go back to work......................


but you are to dumb to see it. enjoy your night.


and your definitions wrong...

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.



I NEVER STRAYED OFF SUBJECT

...further more...


ad hominem arguments are rarely presented as formal syllogisms, and their assessment lies in the domain of informal logic and the theory of evidence.




hmmm. he presented his OWN logic and THEORY

I present proof from HONDA, CT racing and ACTUALL PICTURES backed up by others with PROFESSIONAL EXPERIANCE.

[Black Sheep]

LIFK, but for Me to consider someone as an expert in triple clamps (LOL) one first has to be able to spell "triple".

The thing about your posts I find so amusing is how you are so easily baited into losing your composure. That and your horrendous spelling. :chuckle:



i may not be the best speller or typer;) :2finger: but at least i know my definitions.


as for me being "baited" maybe you should figure out who set the bait in the 2nd post

[Rex Karz]

OK, I'll give you that one, mainly because it's beginning to bore Me. I still don't see how just changing the bottom clamp will change the static angle of the forks and allow them to still fit in the top clamp.

Also:
What are the characteristics of a (trike) steering system that is optimized for flat track racing? Besides being able to rotate more? What about the rake? Does one want more or less rake?

What are the proper terms and their definitions? Rake?, steering angle?, rotation? It appears to me that the Honda manual has just mixed up a few terms.

[350X'inNY]

OK, I'll give you that one, mainly because it's beginning to bore Me. I still don't see how just changing the bottom clamp will change the static angle of the forks and allow them to still fit in the top clamp.

Also:
What are the characteristics of a (trike) steering system that is optimized for flat track racing? Besides being able to rotate more? What about the rake? Does one want more or less rake?

What are the proper terms and their definitions? Rake?, steering angle?, rotation? It appears to me that the Honda manual has just mixed up a few terms.


Did my trig lesson go to waste a couple pages back??? :rolleyes:

[Black Sheep]

Did my trig lesson go to waste a couple pages back??? :rolleyes:

only on the few who fail to understand:chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

[Troll]

http://home.comcast.net/~atc330rrider/image/bikepipeside.jpg

[RapidRick]

Man, you guys shouldn't be riding trikes.

You should be running for the presidential office :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Point....Counterpoint....A little dirt here......A little dirt there.... A little mud there ....

Thought this was a classified parts thread

BTW IMHO I agree with the NY350X and his trig. :headbang: :headbang:

I know installing my forks when all but the top triple needs to be put on, the triple slides over the tubes and the top clamp needs to be coaxed over the top of the steering stem to finish the install. Just my $0.02 everyone else gave theirs. :chuckle:

[3on3250-R]

I would just like to say a few things. I don't want to argue, but I will say I have built quite a few sets of tripples. I have built them with RAKE built Into them, and have built them WITHOUT RAKE. A stock 85-86 250R tripple has about 6 deg of rake built Into It. If you change the angle (RAKE) on one, you will no matter what have to change the angle (RAKE) of the other. I think the reason Honda says the steering angle Is changed with the new lower tripple Is because where the front tire touches the ground will be at a different point because the tire lays way over. By tightening the radious, you change the angle that the tire hits the ground. Because the front axle Is straight from side to side between both forks the Rake will change slightly when the front end Is turned. I do believe If you measured the height of a fixed point toward the front of the trike (The Gas Cap Maybe), you will see when you turn the forks all the way one way. The height will change slightly. The tighter you turn the forks the more this height will change. The biggest difference Is how the tire contacts the ground. I would say In a way both you guys are right, because changing the turning radious will change the rake slightly, because the front axle & tire pushes the front of the bike up and down. That will charge the rake slightly. If you look at It like this It might be easier to understand. As you turn the front forks to the side, one side of the front axle gets closer to the ground. As the axle gets closer to the ground that changes not only the front of the bike, but it changes the weight on the rear of the bike. If you change the caster angle, you change everything. The caster angle changes BIGTIME on a 3 wheeler as the front end Is turned tighter.

[Black Sheep]

If you change the angle (RAKE) on one, you will no matter what have to change the angle (RAKE) of the other.

not entirerly true. as previously stated by 350XinNY and rapid rick. the rake can be altered slightly on the bottom without having to change the top.

a lot of you seem to forget about tollerances and flex.

aluminum flexes very easily. I have bent tripple clamps to the point were when installing the tubes in the lower clamp they would be 3-4mm off at the top clamp. yet i can twist the clamp enough to get the tubes in. (this is what rapid rick is talking about)

[200x_Basket]

350x guy is wrong. IF the upper triple was .01" thick then his idea would work but since the upper is about 2" thick it would cause bind.

here comes some proof.

BTW, an old magazine article (which are known to be wrong, is not proof)

[200x_Basket]

ok here is a little proof for you. the upper clamp is the modified one. BOTH read 94.5*

[3on3250-R]

I know there Is a little movement In the top tripple because the stem hole Is not a pressed fit. I don't know If a slight difference In rake would make as much of a difference as the tighter steering angle would change the caster angle. I have had the tripples off my R's, If you try to pull the top tripple off without a jack under the frame It has alot of tension on It. So there is alot of flex untill all the parts are bolted tight.

[200x_Basket]

the middle pic is the modified clamp and the lower is the ST clamp

[3on3250-R]

I would think If honda did anything, they would want to take rake out to make the bike turn quicker at low speeds/tight turns. If they did take some rake out of the lower tripple, that would move the top of the fork tubes toward the front of the bike farther. Maybe the weight of the bike would twist the top of the fork tubes back far enough to slide the top tripple on and with the slop In the top stem hole, you could gain a SLIGHT bit of rake. I just have a hard time believing that Honda would purposly twist the tripple clamps.

[3on3250-R]

That looks like some pretty good proof to me. Good Idea by the way X basket. Here Is one other thing I have learned from building the sets of tripples I have done Is If you move the steering stem forward or backward from the center line of the fork tubes, It drastically changes the feel on the hancling. By moving the stem back farther than stock, It magnifies the rake, because of the leverage the forks have on the stem. Is the height from the table to the base of the stem the same from the Short Track tripple to the stocker?

[Black Sheep]

350x guy is wrong. IF the upper triple was .01" thick then his idea would work but since the upper is about 2" thick it would cause bind.

here comes some proof.

BTW, an old magazine article (which are known to be wrong, is not proof)

wow nothing will please you except your partial pics that can be altered.

350XinNY you should get a refund for your college education and be removed from teaching.

3&4 wheel magazine (now atv action) should no longer be published. and its not one artical but two. and a year apart

CT racing should get out of the buisness

Honda should stop designing its own parts.

I will forget the past 20+yrs


we have all been proven wrong by a backyard mechanic and his partial pics



BASKET ANSWER MY FIRST QUESTION??? WHAT IS THE MEASUREMENT

stop avoiding it. and check your tape measure the clamp is NOT 2" thick

[200x_Basket]

bill

If i had the proper tools to measure center of the fork hole to the center of the stem hole i would but i do not.

sorry

[200x_Basket]

BTW, i will check back but this is my last post

[Black Sheep]

bill

If i had the proper tools to measure center of the fork hole to the center of the stem hole i would but i do not.

sorry


your not getting off that easy:nono: :nono: :nono: all you need is a straight edge and a tape measure

[3on3250-R]

I know that the top tripple clamp is almost 1-1/2 " thick where Is contacts the forks. I am helping a friend build a set of stock replica 86 R tripples with rake built In and we needed 2" thick material so we would have a little extra aluminum to build the top tripple.

[Black Sheep]

Here Is one other thing I have learned from building the sets of tripples I have done Is If you move the steering stem forward or backward from the center line of the fork tubes, It drastically changes the feel on the hancling. By moving the stem back farther than stock, It magnifies the rake, because of the leverage the forks have on the stem. Is the height from the table to the base of the stem the same from the Short Track tripple to the stocker?


your contridicting yourself. your agreeing with him then proving my point against his claim at the same time

look at this pic and tell me the forks/stem are in the same position.

[Black Sheep]

bill

If i had the proper tools to measure center of the fork hole to the center of the stem hole i would but i do not.

sorry


ooops :doh: thats right you use hammers to :bash: frames to put motors in. :wtf:...;) that one was for you rex (ad hominum ):rolleyes:

[jenndnn3]

Basket the pipe looks like the one I have... Can you do some measurements on it so I may compare...

I have pretty much figured mine was a single unit made by some no name as to nobody has yet to figure it out..

[3on3250-R]

Wow I thought I was just pointing out what I have learned. I guess I did'nt realize I was proving anyones point, except what I have done myself. What I asked him was being that the steering stem was on the same angle. Is the stem farther back from the center line of the fork tubes? Thats why I asked for the measurment from the table to the bottom of the steering stem. I am just giving my Input on both sides. I feel that the steering radious changes the caster angle of the front axlel. Because of that the rake will change slightly. That picture Is really not correct, because the front tripple Is on a huge angle to the right. I won't say anymore, so I don't get myself blamed for taking sides, good luck guys.

[Black Sheep]

I know that the top tripple clamp is almost 1-1/2 " thick where Is contacts the forks. I am helping a friend build a set of stock replica 86 R tripples with rake built In and we needed 2" thick material so we would have a little extra aluminum to build the top tripple.


almost 1 1/2 and 2 are quite a bit differant. especially when were talking about something as small as 3 degrees

[crackshot]

I think black sheep has showed more proof in this thread than any of the others myself thinks.

[Mr. Richard]

Wow,, This Is Riduculious, i believe baskets pictures show they are the same,,, why in the hell wouldn't you believe him? i do,, Bill, you always seem to have the technical info to back up most of your claims ,,, so lets see it,,, show me where there is any technical info to back up the claim that the clamps are indeed different, i am sure if there is any you can find it,,, maybe something to show that there is a degree change not hearsay. not an opinion,,, FACTS ,, otherwise i am going with the pictures,, i highly doubt honda engineeres depended on the flex of a top clamp to makeup the difference of a different angle, its to easy to make a new clamp for the complete kit,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Black Sheep]

Wow,, This Is Riduculious, i believe baskets pictures show they are the same,,,


no they show us what he wants us to see. why not complete pics. its possible he has something under them to change the outcome. all it would take is a small piece of material not picked up by the camera...remember he himself said pics are not acurate



why in the hell wouldn't you believe him? i do,, ,,,


MOTIVE. His advertisement states a KIT. this is not a true kit
A.) he does not have the right tripple
B.) he does not have the right brackets
C.) he is selling an item for profit. why would he admit he is wrong?
D.) i've owned a 250R and Kit for 20years i know what it is.

that you believe him is of no surprise you both follow the same logic. Unless you did it yourself everyone else is wrong.

Were is his BACKUP proof. NOTHING.



Bill, you always seem to have the technical info to back up most of your claims ,,, so lets see it,,, show me where there is any technical info to back up the claim that the clamps are indeed different, i am sure if there is any you can find it,,, maybe something to show that there is a degree change not hearsay. not an opinion,,, FACTS ,,


Hmmm, lets compare

basket has partial pics and you

I have,

Honda, CT racing, 3&4 wheel magazine,(read the artical),350XinNY a teacher/professor, plus severall others who have backed me up.


IN ANY COURT OF LAW THATS PROOF




otherwise i am going with the pictures,, i highly doubt honda engineeres depended on the flex of a top clamp to makeup the difference of a different angle, its to easy to make a new clamp for the complete kit,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


go with the pics but,answer me this:
why can't/won't he provide the measurements i've been asking for since the first page???
Why can't he provide the measurements 350XinNY requested???
Why can't he provide the measurements 3on3250R requested???
why has he disapeared from this thread???

i've answered every question i've been asked relating to this subject. when my expertise was questioned i proved myself with a pic of my abilities.

what has basket done???
ran a misleading advertisement
repetedly changed the subject and thrown out insults.
ducked questions.
provided questionable partial pics.

[dovesprings250R]

I don't post over there but I know several 3ww members have both the shortcourse kit and the stock kit. Maybe somebody could measure trail with both kits and there would be the proof. it would need to be done on the same bike to be accurate I think. If blacksheep is corrrect the trail will be less.

[350X'inNY]

200X basket.... I can see from the pic that the steering stem angles for both appear to be the same. Now from that first pic I commented on, it appears that the forks are pushed forward (increased angle from the above pic) .. this is what is drawn in with the yellow line.

I like the pic of them both on the same set of forks... so it 'appears" the steering stem are at the same angle AND the holes through the bottom triple appear to be the same angle. However, is the HEIGHT of the steering stems the same??? ie, the first pic makes it look like the forks would be pushed forward... this is where I made the ¼" estimate.

Someone also pm'd me that the difference between the triples is only about 6½", so with the new numbers, it would be a 2.2º difference...

Now it seems like the 6½" reading seems low in my mind, especially if people are trying to say the thickness of each is 1½-2". Could someone get me some actual measurements???

However, with a 2.2º difference, on a 1½" thick triple, the difference would be 1.5(tan 2.2º) = y = 0.0576 inches. or just a hair over 1/20th of an inch. As a couple people have said, getting that top triple on the short-track kit takes some extra tweaking... I'd say a twentieth of an inch would be on the edge of tolerances.

[350X'inNY]

200x basket... ps... could you take that pic I asked in a earlier post similar to the pic in the 2nd post, but with the two triples "swapped" L-R ... same height, same angle, same bat time, same bat channel...??? Thanks... again...

[3on3250-R]

The distance from the top of the top tripple to the top of the bottom tripple Is 8-1/4".

[Jez]

WOW. 8 pages of posts in under 2 days! :bitchfigh

To try and get some closure on this, I have a complete short track kit that I'll dig out if you guys want. I'd rather not start stripping one my bikes down for this, but I also have a frame lying around ready for a rebuild I'm doing. If you guys can gauge what you need to know from this kind of setup, I'll throw the triples & forks into the frame and then shoot some pics with a measuring tape included in the shot. Just tell me what you guys want to see and I'll put it all together. I also have a spare set of stock triples, so I'll do two versions of the pics, so you can compare the two setups.

Cheers,
Jez

[Mr. Richard]

wow!! buddy its nice to see you on here again,!!! any light you can cast on the subject would be awesome!!! say hello to the wife and most important,,, hug the trikes!!!!:D :D

[NOS_350X]

Edit

Pm sent to blacksheep

[HondaATC500X]

If you believe that Mr. Honda, as anal as they are with their superior engineering and design of everything else they make would rely on the flex and bind (and thats exactly what it would be) of the forks (Think about how even a slight amount effects suspension mechanics between the springs, the dampening rod, and the sliders not to mention additional side leverage and friction on the bushings, oh boy.) This entire theory of changing the fork rake with the bottom clamp only relies on this fact, that the forks have to be bent, and that Mr. guru Honda designed it that way. If you believe that then yes, the rake change with the bottom clamp only is possible by moving the fork mounts further forward from the stem then the original location even if the stem and fork hole angles are the same. Checkout my 5 minute Pre-k style diagram here.

http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s100/HondaATC/fork-bind.png


It comes down to, do you think Honda purposefully designed the bottom clamp and short track kit with the fork bendage and bind in mind, or not?

[HondaATC500X]

Now from that first pic I commented on, it appears that the forks are pushed forward (increased angle from the above pic) .. this is what is drawn in with the yellow line.

I like the pic of them both on the same set of forks... so it 'appears" the steering stem are at the same angle AND the holes through the bottom triple appear to be the same angle. However, is the HEIGHT of the steering stems the same??? ie, the first pic makes it look like the forks would be pushed forward... this is where I made the ¼" estimate.



I'm just a backyard hack, so I don't know nothin, but why would Honda want to make MORE rake that results in a slower responding, heavier feeling front end, for flat track? Seems to me you'd actually want LESS rake, which means the bottom triple clamp would have to be shorter :D

[Mr. Richard]

i guess there are no actual specs on the kit. that would show all that, hmmmm:cool:

[Black Sheep]

Checkout my 5 minute Pre-k style diagram here.


Billy:shocked: :shocked: :shocked: glad you could finally join in ol friend. I was begining to think you no longer :iluvu: me:kiss: .

I also respect your honesty with your abilities. There is nothing wrong with that.

Now, I do not recall saying it added rake. I do recall saying there was more to it then what was performed on the modded clamp.


Your theroy like the others while seemingly sound has one major flaw. The forks/clamps are designed to flex.

How many of you have crashed your trike hard enough to throw the front end out of alignment??? what happens??? one clamp twist farther then the other??? how does that happen if your tripps can't flex??? i've twisted mine to the point i though i bent a tube. that preety far. Now is it so hard to imagine something as little as 3* is so drastic. its not its a minor amount...at the tripps. but as that smal amount gets farter away it grows.


I never ment for it to go this far. I did not expect the response i got from someone i met and thought i knew. I told myself i was done with all this and i keep getting drawn in trying to help.

[Black Sheep]

I'm just a backyard hack, so I don't know nothin,


so let me help you...

I do not believe these clamps will have enough clamping surface area for upsidedown forks. not only that to even get them to hold i would suspect you need some serious ft.lbs. of tourqe to get them to hold. It should be noted that most upside down clamps can only tolerate 16ft.lbs. anything more will crush the outer tubes and cause internal binding. Hense the need for more surface area.

If you need help look at my clamps

[HondaATC500X]

I still don't like you, or your cocky and arrogant attitude. I'm here stating my opinion and idea on the situation based on my thoughts and experiences.

Forks and triples might be designed to temporarily flex and bind, but what is the long term results of bending the forks even as a little as an 1/8inch with the suspension parts inside sliding up and down against the fork tube and riding on the bushings like I mentioned? I'm not debating that ITS POSSIBLE for it to be this way, it is. Is it logical to me that Honda would design it to be this way? No. I wouldn't, and chances are, if a retard like me wouldn't, then the brains at Honda wouldn't either.

edit: Those clamps of mine you posted were a preliminary design, and those are the only ones that were ever made because of numerous flaws I found, and corrected.

[Black Sheep]

I still don't like you, or your cocky and arrogant attitude.

And I don't like you and your backstabbing. I don't like your overhyping of things just to get attention. YOU SIR MISLEAD PEOPLE WAAAY TO MUCH




edited by 250sx

[HondaATC500X]

The same ole bill, always trying to rile people up and stir the pot. Have a nice evening everyone.

[Black Sheep]

I'm here stating my opinion and idea on the situation based on my thoughts and experiences.

and all i did was try to help you with your clamps. not taking advice is waaay more arogent and cocky. I have at least Backed my words up.

[250sx]

I have cleaned this up for the last time. Everyone has their shots in. Keep this post confined to the topic at hand or it will be gone for good. :nono: As both bill and billy know, the personal attacks belong in the FIGHT CLUB. Go at it all you want there. Notice I said attacks, not insults. Attacks are something like "you're a know-it-all who doesn't really know squat" NOT "you're a @#^@%^%@#^!#!" Get the difference? THANKS

[NOS_350X]

Dan, I :iluvu: you. Your doing the lords work here on .org :p

There just tripple clamps. :lmao: Its good to see the :bitchfigh

[250sx]

I was just at basket's house and looked at his original ST lower clamp and his modded one. I may have been looking wrong, but other than some extra thinning/lightening around the fender mounting points they looked basically the same. We stacked them up on top of each other on a pair of forks and the top of the stem hit the bottom of the one above it the exact same no matter which set was on top. :shrug:

[Rex Karz]

I will be convinced whenever someone can tell me the exact measurements. Until then, it just says "more" and "Quicker" and "Radius" but no exact numbers.

[Rex Karz]

After reading it, it could be a slight misprint or misinterpretaion repeated twice. I don't see it.

[dovesprings250R]

So 200xbasket has on original? Why not sell that one since it IS listed as a short track kit and keep the modded one if there is no difference. I don't have one so I can't do it, but if someone could measure the trail with both set ups that would solve the whole thing. I always heard the short track kit had reduced trail for quicker steering. How they did it I don't know.

[Black Sheep]

After rereading this thread here is what i am convinced of.

The tripple clamp basket has is a modified stock clamp.
It is modified in such a way as to mimick the HRC clamp as close as possible.

I am convinced the modifier of these clamps removed the stock stem, filled in the hole partially with weld then rebored the hole for the HRC angle.

I am convinced of this for severall reasons.

1. Dan has at least backed up baskets claime (to a certain degree)
2. Basket admits they have been welded on.
It is welded up and performs just like an original set of short track clamps
3. there is no other reason to weld on the clamp. the stops have been removed and i see no additions to the clamps. *see pic below*
4. while modified to mimick the HRC clamp they still have more material on the clamp that would interfear with a full lock slide.


I stand behind The belief that the stock clamp and HRC clamp have differant rakes. Not because its my opinion. It is not just mine. The magazines also state this. when i bought my kits i was told this. If you read the booklet Honda clearly states..."increased steering angle" and "alters the steering,handling, and stability"

angle refures to fork angle
steering refures to side to side moverment.
handling refures to overall dynamics.
STABILITY however would not be effected by tighter turning.
stability (as mentioned by others) is increased by a longer rake and decreased by a steeper rake.


based on this i do not believe basket intended to mislead others. and i have edited my post to reflect that.


so with all that being said we are both wrong and both right at the same time.

[Black Sheep]

So 200xbasket has on original? Why not sell that one since it IS listed as a short track kit and keep the modded one if there is no difference.


good point

[dovesprings250R]

I don't think he tried to mis lead anyone either.

[NOS_350X]

I stand behind The belief that the stock clamp and HRC clamp have differant rakes. Not because its my opinion. It is not just mine. The magazines also state this. when i bought my kits i was told this. If you read the booklet Honda clearly states..."increased steering angle" and "alters the steering,handling, and stability"

angle refures to fork angle
steering refures to side to side moverment.
handling refures to overall dynamics.
STABILITY however would not be effected by tighter turning.
stability (as mentioned by others) is increased by a longer rake and decreased by a steeper rake.



Thats your interpitation of what it says.

Increased stering angle could meen turing radius.

Alters the steering handling and stabliity could be even minor things. Because grips can feel like they do all those things.

[Black Sheep]

Thats your interpitation of what it says.

Increased stering angle could meen turing radius.

Alters the steering handling and stabliity could be even minor things. Because grips can feel like they do all those things.


No those are YOUR interpetations and assumptions Not mine.

come back when you have half as much experiance as i do.:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: i've forgotten more about ATC's then you know

[Rex Karz]

No those are YOUR interpetations and assumptions Not mine.

come back when you have half as much experiance as i do.:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: i've forgotten more about ATC's then you know

We'll come back when You can provide the exact angles and real proof other than a couple of vague brochures with unsubstantiated general claims. Why can't you do this? Please stop with the logical fallacies. (Todays flavor being "Appeal to authority".)

Maybe it's the same "angle" and You just forgot it like you said. Here's a new spelling lesson: REFER, not refure.

[Black Sheep]

We'll come back when You can provide the exact angles and real proof other than a couple of vague brochures with unsubstantiated general claims. Why can't you do this?


unsubstantiated ???
http://www.3wheeler.org/3&4wheelaction/9-85~CTracer.html

the same referance i used to prove a HRC kit gave a 06 450R H.P.

I guess every artical they wright is wrong. right NOS;) :rolleyes: :lmao:

[Black Sheep]

Please stop with the logical fallacies. (Todays flavor being "Appeal to authority".

please stop with your hypocricy(sp?)



Really? You might want to re-assess your methods of persuasion. In particular, your ad hominum attacks:

what have you added to this debate except your attacks on me and my credibility???

what proof have you provided to the contrary???

if i wanted spelling lessons i'd ask "How to Spell .org"

practice what you preach

[jenndnn3]

Ok lets stick to the topic AT HAND>>>

Part of the problem is alot of "distracting" side comments....

[Rex Karz]

The problem is that mr Black sheep can provide assertions and hearsay but not numbers. Until then it is just blah, blah, blah.

[jenndnn3]

Until someone comes up with an "ACTUAL" short track tripple which is disputed nobody has proved anything...:thumbsup:

Lets come up with one of those and a stock one and see some differences...

[Black Sheep]

The problem is that mr Black sheep can provide assertions and hearsay but not numbers. Until then it is just blah, blah, blah.

the problem is you've added nothing to the argument other then your snide remarks and inuendo's


if published info is not enough nothing ever will. your not arguing withn facts your arguing against your personal opinion of me.

show me MR REX what HAVE YOU BUILT. WHAT IS YOUR EXPERIANCE. HOW MANY 250R's HAVE YOU OWNED???

what proof have you provided to the contrary???none what have you done but remark about me/my abilities/or my methods what relevence is that.

Now I ask of you, Please tell me how a magazine, that speciallizes in ATC's (at the time) contacted a company (one of the best) about building a racer 250R (machine in question) and used the very item underdiscussion then wrote an artical for ALL to see. please inform me how that is heresay or as you so inteligently put it...blah blah blah


p.s. i slowed my typing down and am working on my spelling so your not distracted and can spend more time answering my questions and debating the issues not the style

[Rex Karz]

the problem is you've added nothing to the argument other then your snide remarks and inuendo's


if published info is not enough nothing ever will. your not arguing withn facts your arguing against your personal opinion of me.

show me MR REX what HAVE YOU BUILT. WHAT IS YOUR EXPERIANCE. HOW MANY 250R's HAVE YOU OWNED???

what proof have you provided to the contrary???none what have you done but remark about me/my abilities/or my methods what relevence is that.

Still no numbers, eh ?

[Black Sheep]

Still no numbers, eh ?

i got your number:upyours: and your pm's about my family

for the rest of you...

here you go 53200-HA2-810

that is the Honda Part number for the lower HRC clamp look it up. Honda does not offfer specs on it. Nor do they on most of thier HRC parts.

[3on3250-R]

If you look better at your drawing of straight lines on the picture of both tripples. You and everyone else should be able to see, that you can't compare the 2 picture's. On the origional ST tripple you are looking straight down the steering stem. On the other modded tripple, you are looking at the entire rear section of the steering stem, It Is leaning forward. You are drawing a straight line using a shadow of the back of the modded tripple. In order for the picture to be comparable you would have to sit them side by side so the 2 are evenly lined up.

[Black Sheep]

350XinNY already addresed that issue. he explained it way better then i can.

however. I have a Honda schematic of both clamps. and in the schematic it shows the same thing i'm trying to show with the pic. i'm trying to resize it to fit. every time i do it gets distorted.

[jenndnn3]

Send it to me..

By the way a nice lesson..
53200 = part of the steering system (pretty much anything that revovlved around the steering had these 5 numbers on it for most honda trikes/bikes)
-HA2- = Type of trike/bike/quad originally made for
810 = the model made

[Black Sheep]

here they are.

1st pic. untouched

2nd pic.
first look at the arrows. why would honda ADD material to the back of the stem that would otherwise limit movement on a stock clamp.

second, look at the area circled notice the differant shape.

3rd pic. all the part numbers for the kit. a little more to it then a tank and "reworked" tripples

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff223/motomanimal32/HRC.jpg


http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff223/motomanimal32/HRC-1.jpg


http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff223/motomanimal32/numbers.jpg

[250sx]

Chris (basket) says he has both an original HRC and his modded lower triple. If someone will tell me what exactly they want measured and photographed & from what angle then I'll do it next time I'm over at his house. Preferably spell these requests out in detail with example pics of your own b/c it's a 30min drive and I don't wanna do it twice. :doh:

[Black Sheep]

Dan, for the sake of this debate all three clamps are needed.

stock,
modded,
HRC,

[250sx]

I think he has that covered too. Of course, I wouldn't know an hrc clamp from a stocker I don't think so I will just have to take his word on that. :D Dirtsquirt still has his kit too I think.

[NOS_350X]

In the pics what are we suposto be looking at? I realy dont see much on there except there forged with no tabs. You shure cant tell what rake its going to put anything out. If your trying to prove that there is a diffrence then yes you can tell there diffrent but you cant tell the extent to which they are.

[Mr. Richard]

:D :D ok lets read a little slower,,,,,, the honda paperwork says INCREASED STEERING ANGLE,,, they have INCREASED THE angle right? THATS WHAT THE HONDA PAPERWORK SAYS!!!!

OK THE magazine article says tighter rake!!!!! that means a decrease in angle so i do not think they are using all the terms in their correct manner ,,, they contridict each other,,

so throw them out as reliable technical information ,,, its just like two guys talking about the same thing without knowing the true definitions and using proper terminology,,,, so until we get realtime measurments on these there is no arguement!!!!!! because both sourses are flawed from a technical standpoint:D :D :D

[Black Sheep]

OK THE magazine article says tighter rake!!!!!

no actually it says verbatim...a STEEPER raked bottom tripple clamp...


a STEEPER rake results in a INCREASED STEERING ANGLE

a longer rake results in decreased steering angle.


ever ride a chopper...the farther out you go the more steering you lose

[Black Sheep]

sorry does not meet officer Kasey's aproval

[Mr. Richard]

maybe start your own thread or add it to your 450r thread

[Troll]

The fender looks fine. As does the vented plate. I run the same bars on our R.
Are you going to use fork boots or shields?
The triplies look a little bent?............Lmao :D

[Black Sheep]

sorry officer

[dunerash]

Dirtsquirt still has his kit too I think.

Im less than 30 min from Dirtsquirts house ..If he cant get his hands out of his pants long enough and take the pic himself:lmao:

[Jez]

wow!! buddy its nice to see you on here again,!!! any light you can cast on the subject would be awesome!!! say hello to the wife and most important,,, hug the trikes!!!!:D :D

Hi Richard,

Thanks mate and good to hear from you too. It’s been too long. I saw in another thread you went walkies and no talkies........You should know how that goes down with the family matey LOL. :doh: Faye says “Hi” by the way and our best to you and yours too. Catch up soon and as you say: Hug those trikes for me buddy!!!

Anyway, onto the question at hand. I took some shots below. Camera was mounted in a fixed position and I then lined the triples up to my stairway banister with the help of a can of Honda Spray Cleaner. :shrug: The stock clamp is the one with the bolts sticking out of it. As you can see, the angles of the two stems look identical. My understanding of the kit is that all it did was allow a tighter turning circle and did nothing to the geometry (and in turn wheelbase) of the bike. The reason Honda went to the trouble of making a specific lower triple clamp for the kit was that simply grinding down the stock steering stops would not allow a tighter turning circle. To achieve a tighter turning circle with the stock clamps, you would have to grind into the clamp, thereby compromising it’s integrity. As you will notice from the pics (I will provide better ones when I find the tripod), the shorttrack triple is slimmer in the centre by some margin.

No doubt, there will be other posts with differing views to this, so I’m happy to provide whatever pictures/measurements people want in order to prove whichever view ultimately turns out to be right. Like I said, I’m happy to mount forks/triples into a frame etc and take measurements if you guys want. Just let me know what you need.

Cheers,
Jez

PS. Jenn – The suffixes 810 & 811 are the HRC component identifiers in any Honda part number.

[Jez]

I can't upload the pics as they're too big. Any chance someone can resize them and post them for me?

Cheers,
Jez

[SWIGIN]

i can never figure stuff like that out ether ...but this resizer is so easy even i can do it....lol just click the 450x600 thing and it should work

http://www.resize2mail.com/

[jenndnn3]

Jez... jenndnn3@att.net

[jenndnn3]

The picts... Oh yeah I have them probably out of order..


http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb203/jenndnn3/IMG_3576.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb203/jenndnn3/IMG_3575.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb203/jenndnn3/IMG_3574.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb203/jenndnn3/IMG_3573.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb203/jenndnn3/IMG_3567.jpg
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb203/jenndnn3/IMG_3570.jpg

[350X'inNY]

I'm just a backyard hack, so I don't know nothin, but why would Honda want to make MORE rake that results in a slower responding, heavier feeling front end, for flat track? Seems to me you'd actually want LESS rake, which means the bottom triple clamp would have to be shorter :D
__________________
Owner/Updater of
3wheelerworld.com


I'm just going by the pics.... if the forks are ahead slightly, then they have more room to increase the turning radius. As a short track kit, the improved turning radius is the key, the slight increase in rake wouldn't be as important as the tighter steering. Remember, we are talking about 1-2º at the most.

I didn't realize that you were the "owner" of that other site. It's too bad you can't have a intellectual debate like this at that site you "own" because your other moderators drive off anyone with any knowledge. If I owned it, I'd have to have a bit more say over the other moderators.

[jenndnn3]

Jez,
I dont know if you got my email? But thank you for the Picts.. Anychance on those measurements?

I dont think they changed the ANGLE of the steering stem, it looks like to me they just moved it...

This pict is in the Classifieds @ 3WW
http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/showthread.php?t=79439

http://i29.tinypic.com/2en99v5.jpg

[350X'inNY]

Jez,
I dont know if you got my email? But thank you for the Picts.. Anychance on those measurements?

I dont think they changed the ANGLE of the steering stem, it looks like to me they just moved it...

This pict is in the Classifieds @ 3WW
http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/showthread.php?t=79439

http://i29.tinypic.com/2en99v5.jpg


Thanks Jenn.... Honestly, I'm starting to wonder if that angle is only jumping out becasue the depth of the triple tree is decreased. At any rate, the person is selling this for $80 over there, so I guess If I won the other kit, I'd have to buy the correct part for the other $80 and then be happy! :headbang:

[3on3250-R]

I would have to say the pic's that jenndnn3 posted show that there Is no difference In the stem location In the 2 tripples. 2 deg over a 8" span Is easily enough to bind up the fork tubes. The difference Is In the rear of the tripple only. Honda removed the meaty part of the tripple around the steering stem so they could move the steeing stops rarther toward the front. Doing that of course makes the turning radious tighter.

Jenndnn3, Nice job getting 2 almost exact pic's. He lined up the bottom of the stem with the vertical wood banister, and the back edge of the fork tube hole with the steel vertical railing tube.

[NOS_350X]

Must just be me but i dont see any thing diffrent in the 2 other than the casting. Angles look the same, and forks and stem position looks the same.

[HondaATC500X]

So whats the verdict eh? Change in rake with the bottom triple only or not? No ones argued and said that it didn't increase the capacity of the steering lock (left and right turning) but I think the original debate was the rake of the front end. Has anyone measured the bottom clamp to check what I had previously mentioned about the forks being moved forward or backward away from the stem? If the stem angle and the fork angles are the same (which it sure appears to be the case) thats the only other way the fork rake can be increased, and thats even with bind.

[HondaATC500X]

I'm just going by the pics.... if the forks are ahead slightly, then they have more room to increase the turning radius. As a short track kit, the improved turning radius is the key, the slight increase in rake wouldn't be as important as the tighter steering. Remember, we are talking about 1-2º at the most.

I didn't realize that you were the "owner" of that other site. It's too bad you can't have a intellectual debate like this at that site you "own" because your other moderators drive off anyone with any knowledge. If I owned it, I'd have to have a bit more say over the other moderators.


I just like being a punching bag :D Like I just said, I don't think anyone ever argued that the bottom clamp didn't change the amount of steering lock the front had, just that it didn't change the front end rake. And then I mentioned previously, that if there was any change in rake to benefit flat tracking it would be LESS rake, which if the stems, and fork alignment holes were the same angle would have to be acheived by moving the forks on the bottom clamp further BACK towards the stem instead of away from it and that even this couldn't be done without binding the forks.

[Mr. Richard]

well i guess if you put it all together without the forktubes lined it all up and tightened it all up ,,,, if the fork tubes slid in without a bind i would say no difference!! its just to hard to say from the pictures,,

[350X'inNY]

I just like being a punching bag :D Like I just said, I don't think anyone ever argued that the bottom clamp didn't change the amount of steering lock the front had, just that it didn't change the front end rake. And then I mentioned previously, that if there was any change in rake to benefit flat tracking it would be LESS rake, which if the stems, and fork alignment holes were the same angle would have to be acheived by moving the forks on the bottom clamp further BACK towards the stem instead of away from it and that even this couldn't be done without binding the forks.

Yeah... I got that from the post you typed like 3 minutes before. :postwhore

As I said, the pic Jenn just provided makes me think that the angle difference in the previous 1st pic, was because the ST Tripple is thinner from front to back. Again YES this would give a greater turning radius. I fully agree with Kasey... get some measurements with and without that HRC triple and this will be a done deal.

It's been over a year since you updated your site...(1/22/07) ... so go get busy already. Or are you just trollin' over here to find some new info to post??? hahahaha

[Rex Karz]

Get a pair of forks and slide one triple all the way down on it. Slide the other one on it upside down. If the head tubes touch at the same point, they're identical.

[Black Sheep]

I want to get off the subject of the 250R kit for a minute and focus on tripple clamp theroy. There are many post about the impossibility to make a slight change in stem degee. The argument against this is It is impossible because the forks won't line up. It has also been argued that it would cause the forks to bind up in the tripples. with this being said i decide to take a 350X that has a bent front end to disprove this theroy. Among the parts bent are the fork tubes and upper tripple clamp. in the first pic you can see the bent up trike. in the second pic you can see how far off the top tripple clamp is bent...almost 3/16". the third pic shows that the trike is in no way fixed in its position, meaning it will move when pressure is applied. the video shows how easy it is to move. this video is filmed by me with my right hand while i am moving the fork leg with my left hand. with nothing holding the trike in place and "balenced" on a stand i can easily line it up. meaning there is very little resistance. I intentionally did this without the help of anyone else to show how easy it is to line the fork up with one clamp out of "alignment" with the other. Now 3/16" is quite a differance. If the stem was changed by 1/2* the resulting change at the tripple would be less the 1/8" however as that traveled down the fork tube to the front axel the change would be over 1/2" enough to make a noticeable change in handling. it should be noted that Honda ATC tripple clamps are made from cast aluminum and are very flexable.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff223/motomanimal32/th_theone.jpg (http://s238.photobucket.com/albums/ff223/motomanimal32/?action=view&current=theone.flv)

[Black Sheep]

in the diagram below i show how 1/2* works out using the 350X as a referance. the next two pics show the differance in 350X and 250R frames. 1/4". the differance is noted on the diagram.

[Mr. Richard]

heres a simple question . to ANYONE that has installed a short track kit,. Do the tubes slide in directly? Or do you have to FORCE them in? bill have you NEVER installed a set?

[Black Sheep]

did someone say something:rolleyes: ;) :lmao:


I had both the stock and complete kits. i had 3 of them.

[firefirefire90]

i don't see why honda would make a kit where you have to FORCE your fork tubes into the tripple-tree's to make them work. I would think that it would stress the forks to a degree making them not work as effectively..


idk :shrug: Doesn't make sense..

[Black Sheep]

i don't see why honda would make a kit where you have to FORCE your fork tubes into the tripple-tree's to make them work. I would think that it would stress the forks to a degree making them not work as effectively..



the video shows how easy it is to move. this video is filmed by me with my right hand while i am moving the fork leg with my left hand.

I intentionally did this without the help of anyone else to show how easy it is to line the fork up with one clamp out of "alignment" with the other.

with nothing holding the trike in place and "balenced" on a stand i can easily line it up.

it should be noted that Honda ATC tripple clamps are made from cast aluminum and are very flexable.

I give up. I must type in a foriegn language. This debate has become pointless.

[firefirefire90]

me no speaky english :D


the proof is in the pudding!

[Mr. Richard]

ok you had 3 kits then,do you remember if the tubes slide in directly? Or do you have to FORCE them in?