TRX 450r Swingarm into 85/86 250r pics

[Aussieduner]

My buddy Brett started a conversion to put a 06/07 TRX450 swinger into his 86 R,he is also using the 450 shock and linkages, i also did a conversion but went with the 250r shock etc.We also have a thread at our forum on it and here are some progress pics.
http://www.ozatv.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5459

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/Aussieduner/Conversion1.jpg
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/Aussieduner/Conversion13.jpg
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/Aussieduner/Conversion14.jpg
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/Aussieduner/450RCon.jpg
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m19/Aussieduner/450RCon1.jpg

[Black Sheep]

did you guys consider the change of linkage ratio's, the shorter swingarm, and lighter weight (lighter swingarm for 250R shock and lighter machine for the 450R shock) and how that effects shock valving and spring rates?

[NOS_350X]

What is the length diffrence from a stock 250r?

BS rember 90% of people lengthen or shorten swingarms with never taking the shock valving into consideration, Most riders adapt to the bike. The lighter swingarm wont affect the effectiveness of a shock. At least the lightened swingarms i got on my shee and 450 i dont notice any determintal effects.

It sounds like your searching for Problems that really arnt going to be present. Now maby with the stock trx shock and linkage it might run a bit stiff. That would be easy enough to buy a new spring for the shock.

I gota say aussieduner Keep up the good work, BAD ASS, Good way to use what ya got, I got a spare 450 swinger sittin here, another piece i dont have to buy for my 250r when i piece one together.

[Aussieduner]

The 2006/07 TRX 450r swingarm is the same length as the 250R swinger,the previous year's TRX were 1 inch shorter.OK on my conversion i used the stock 250R shock and front linkage but due to the location of the rear linkage mount on the TRX swinger(this is further back than the 250R) i used a TRX250r durablue lowering strut to obtain a correct ride height, hope this all make sense.

Here's the TRX450 swinger against an 85R swinger,length is good,this also shows the rear linkage mount location on both.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b71/bc123/450Rswingarmconversion001-1.jpg

[Mr. Richard]

wow very nice,,, that makes a 250r look more up to date for sure!!! whats the difference in swingarm s as far as weight/ maybe a couple of pounds? VERY NICE CONVERSION,,,

[GarlicGreg]

Any issues with the brakes or chain slider? What about chain length? Can you post some pics of the brake installed? Great idea.

[Black Sheep]

Aussie, first off i'd like to say i'm in no way trying to discredit you or your conversion. Trying to improve your ride and offer help to others is a good thing.

With that said all i'm trying to do is help you get the maximum benefits from your conversion.

if i'm not mistaken the ATC swingarm is actually about a half inch longer then the 06-08 TRX 450R swingarm. I think this was also mentioned in the thread at your site http://www.ozatv.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5459

additionally the link mount if farther back on the TRX swingarm. This combitnation changes the ratio of leverage and force applied to the shock.

If you've ever paid attention to the factories and aftermarket MX Bike suspension you'll have noticed that sometimes a change as little as 10mm in a pull rod can turn average suspension into superior suspension.

weight also plays a big part. the lighter swingarm will "react" quicker then a heavier steel one.


even though I have been revalving shocks for over 10 years, when designing my TPC 450R's rear suspension i sought the input from other experts in the field. I spoke with all the major aftermarket swingarm/suspension companies. Many things have to be considered. as i spoke to each of them describing what i was doing it came down to only one company being able to meet a three wheelers demands for rear suspenion using a quad rear end. True my rear end is more advanced then what your using, but i hope you get the idea.

again i'm only trying to help you get the most out of it.

truth be told i have every reason in the world for this idea to be a complete success. I have brand new 06 trx 450R swingarm/shock/linkage parts that to me are nothing more then oversized paper weights. I'd love to be able to sell them to someone who could use them...nobodys gonna buy them for thier trx quad.

[wild200x]

very cool conversion man!

[likestrikes]

How did you get it between the frame rails? It's about 3/4 " wider than the stock R. There is a fix, just curious how you guys went about it....

Everyone who has done this says the 250R shock is the way to go..??

[Mr. Richard]

If you've ever paid attention to the factories and aftermarket MX Bike suspension you'll have noticed that sometimes a change as little as 10mm in a pull rod can turn average suspension into superior suspension.


i can agree with this,,, BUT he has not changed any of the shock geometry,,, same swinger point,, same link arm point, same length link arm,, so the rear bottom shock mount remains in the same geometric position as stock,, the only difference is the length of the rear link arm,, which would be the same as using a adjustable arm to lower your ride height,, that is the only dimention that changes,, and the swinger might be 1/2 inch shorter,, i don't have one to measure so i am not sure of that,,, so i don't see it changing the rear suspension that dramaticlly,,, also the reaction time in millaseconds ???? this isn't an indy car :D :D

[Black Sheep]

the only difference is the length of the rear link arm,, which would be the same as using a adjustable arm to lower your ride height,, that is the only dimention that changes,, and the swinger might be 1/2 inch shorter,, i don't have one to measure so i am not sure of that,,, so i don't see it changing the rear suspension that dramaticlly,,, also the reaction time in millaseconds ???? this isn't an indy car :D :D

not true. the LOCATION of the mount on the TRX swingarm is farther back then on the ATC. this changes the force applied to the shock.

Lowering your ride height is also considered when revalving a shock. when your rear end is lowered more weight is transfered to the rear of the bike/trike/quad.

while a 1/2" might not seem like a lot...remember the hot set up for racing/modified 250R's was to go longer.

[Mr. Richard]

Lowering your ride height is also considered when revalving a shock. when your rear end is lowered more weight is transfered to the rear of the bike/trike/quad.

if you lower the trike 4 inches to flat track,,, nothing changes,,,, the weight transfer does not change ,, unless you do not lower the front,,, and then maybe you get a little more transfer,, because your forced back because the front is higher,, so i wonder how many people know you can change your 250r wheelbase by 1 inch and your ride height by 1 inch without any modifications???? and since you can do that the fractions that aussieduner is working with should not have much effect on performance,,,,,

[Black Sheep]

your taking things i'm saying and putting them out of context. I've revalved shocks and as far as i know you have not. I'm not gonna argue with you anymore. anyway we are both "supposed" to be ignoring each other RIGHT!!! isn't that what you wanted???

all i'm trying to do is point out that there are more things to consider then just worrying if something will physically fit.

[Mr. Richard]

everything i have said is directly related to his project ,,, since the swinger is 1/2 inch shorter he can adjust that by the chain length and carrier position,,, so that point is covered, right?
since the same front link arm is used the shock travel in relation to the wheel travel is the same too RIGHT?

so there are only 2 other points to cover,, the weight difference of the swingers and the rear link arm attach point,,, and these might make a slight difference agreed ,,, whats to argue about?

[Mr. Richard]

oh heck i almost forgot,,, you can throw the reaction time out the window with an increase in unsprung weight ,,, that a aftermarket pair of 6 ply tires or a heavier set of paddle tires would do for you also...

[wild200x]

you 2 quit your snivling and wrecking what was a cool thread!:lmao: :cool: :doh: :wtf:

this is a cool project!

[Black Sheep]

ok if you insist.


everything i have said is directly related to his project ,,,

true, but somehow you took me talking about lowering the rear ride height into lowering the entire ride height...which by the way does alter shock performance.



since the swinger is 1/2 inch shorter he can adjust that by the chain length and carrier position,,, so that point is covered, right?

no its not. the overall length of the swingarm does not change because of a ecentric cam bearing carrier "inside" the swingarm. it is still a 1/2" shorter.


additionally its has been discovered that moving the axel back for chain adjustment does in fack alter shock valving performance. albeit a small amount.

but by now we are talking about SEVERALL small differances...weight, length, mounting point, ride height, ect. that all adds up.

again i'm not saying this is a bad idea. just that in my opinion it should be thought out more.

sure most people may not even notice the differance but at least now they have more information to consider.

Hell if you like the idea so much i'll sell you my 06 TRX Rear end:D :D :D

[Gdkarma]

Damn, that's pretty cool that you found a new part to fit these old beasts!:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

All said and done, how do you feel about the outcome of this conversion? Is there any reason that you can't do the same thing with an extended swinger from the TRX450R?:shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

EXCELLENT WORK!!!!!:hail: :hail: :hail: :hail: :hail:

[Mr. Richard]

i would do this conversion in a minute ,, it looks fantastic,, and i might consider it on my daughters 250,, but us sand guys like more swingarm length ,, for the big hills,,, this conversion is alot less work than red rider went through,,, but its just to short,,

[Aussieduner]

How did you get it between the frame rails? It's about 3/4 " wider than the stock R. There is a fix, just curious how you guys went about it....

Everyone who has done this says the 250R shock is the way to go..??

Check the link i put up on the first post its shows the 2 types of conversions both 450r and 250r shocks and linkages etc.
Using the 450r shock you have to loose the airbox due to the location of the shock res, thats why i stayed with the 250r shock.
Re your question on the width of the swingarm to the 250r frame,its the same, no modification to the swingarm required.With the brakes im using all the 86R gear which means carrier,brake mounting bracket and calliper.
The only real mod issue is,
1: you need to machine a new bush for the rear linkage bolt mount as the 450r bolt has a smaller OD than the 250r bolt.

Aussie

[Aussieduner]

[QUOTE=Gdkarma]Damn, that's pretty cool that you found a new part to fit these old beasts!:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:

All said and done, how do you feel about the outcome of this conversion? Is there any reason that you can't do the same thing with an extended swinger from the TRX450R?:shocked: :shocked: :shocked:


Thats a good point i cant see any reason why an aftermarket extened 450r swingarm wont fit the 250r.I have riden mine yet but my buddy Brett has and apprently its all very good.

Aussie

[wild200x]

Ausy, dont mind the few! this is a great project! please keep us updated. i think it could be great even if one did it w/an extention.

[Mr. Richard]

Check the link i put up on the first post its shows the 2 types of conversions both 450r and 250r shocks and linkages etc.
Using the 450r shock you have to loose the airbox due to the location of the shock res, thats why i stayed with the 250r shock.
Re your question on the width of the swingarm to the 250r frame,its the same, no modification to the swingarm required.With the brakes im using all the 86R gear which means carrier,brake mounting bracket and calliper.
The only real mod issue is,
1: you need to machine a new bush for the rear linkage bolt mount as the 450r bolt has a smaller OD that the 250r bolt.

Aussie
that kicks but!!! all i need is a $50 06 trx swinger and i can look like that!!!! there on ebay all day for that,,, since i have several dura blue adjustable struts i am going to do it,,,,, thanks for all the info man its worth a mint!!!

[wild200x]

that kicks but!!! all i need is a $50 06 trx swinger and i can look like that!!!! there on ebay all day for that,,, since i have several dura blue adjustable struts i am going to do it,,,,, thanks for all the info man its worth a mint!!!ya! you all got me thinking about heading that way w/the alien, rather than just an aftermarket chromer. we will see. KASEY, be sure to do a thread on the extention if ya do one.

:hail: this whole idea! it is great, and you all should have the bugs worked out by the time i do it!:lmao:

[Mr. Richard]

I WON'T EXTEND ONE ,,, i would just do kelli's 250r,,, she likes it just the way it is,,, so no need for an extention,,, just like the newer look to it and if its as simple as he says it is kool,,,, hers is an 86 too so i need nothing else,,,

[Black Sheep]

sorry Aussie i was not trying to tarnish your thread or conversion. I was just trying to point out other things to be considered. MY mistake was responding to someone i should ignore. the result is always the same.

if you choose to look into revalving or you don't that is your choice. but my professional opinion as a suspension builder/designer i would at least look into it. At worse you wasted a few minutes of your times. AT best you improved your set up.

[Aussieduner]

sorry Aussie i was not trying to tarnish your thread or conversion. I was just trying to point out other things to be considered. MY mistake was responding to someone i should ignore. the result is always the same.

if you choose to look into revalving or you don't that is your choice. but my professional opinion as a suspension builder/designer i would at least look into it. At worse you wasted a few minutes of your times. AT best you improved your set up.

Hey no offence taken Black Sheep, bit of healthy debate never does any harm :)

Aussie

[Aussieduner]

that kicks but!!! all i need is a $50 06 trx swinger and i can look like that!!!! there on ebay all day for that,,, since i have several dura blue adjustable struts i am going to do it,,,,, thanks for all the info man its worth a mint!!!

Your correct the 06/07 swingers are very cheap on ebay, they make the trike look modern and no surgery to the frame or new swinger is required, win win situation.
Just rememeber you will need to make a new bush for the rear dura blue strut to take the 450r bolt, its not a big deal to machine one up.

[ScottZJ]

You know whats sad about some of these posts are?? We are NOT FREAKIN Racers and need everything 100% perfect! LOL We do not need that .10 lbs off the trike to make it faster. You guys talking about IF Honda would have done this.........honda isnt doing it, its someone that has the nads enough to change something for the better......geez. The main FACT here is that the ATC suspension is WAY out of date! Its 20 years old for goodness sake. With this being said, any new quad conversion will only help the trike as long as they are similar in action. :oldfogey:

Oh I forgot to add........KILLER JOB Ausisse! You guys over the big pond rock for sure!

[Aussieduner]

You know whats sad about some of these posts are?? We are NOT FREAKIN Racers and need everything 100% perfect! LOL We do not need that .10 lbs off the trike to make it faster. You guys talking about IF Honda would have done this.........honda isnt doing it, its someone that has the nads enough to change something for the better......geez. The main FACT here is that the ATC suspension is WAY out of date! Its 20 years old for goodness sake. With this being said, any new quad conversion will only help the trike as long as they are similar in action. :oldfogey:

Oh I forgot to add........KILLER JOB Ausisse! You guys over the big pond rock for sure!

We do our best Scott and yes we do like to ROCK :headbang:

[Black Sheep]

:lmao:
You know whats sad about some of these posts are?? We are NOT FREAKIN Racers and need everything 100% perfect!....

...The main FACT here is that the ATC suspension is WAY out of date! Its 20 years old for goodness sake. With this being said, any new quad conversion will only help the trike as long as they are similar in action. :oldfogey:

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: the irony is the only thing out of date on the ATC suspension is the shock valving. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[ScottZJ]

Well still funny thing is that people worry about the smallest details on things when we arent making 100k a year riding trikes for some company. So if something isnt spot on to the milisecond then we wont die or have major issues riding trails.:burnout: :rolleyes: :chuckle:

[NOS_350X]

A steel swingarm, standard forks, not having progressive springs. There is 3 other things that are out of date on an atc. Which really arnt big deals.

[Black Sheep]

Well still funny thing is that people worry about the smallest details on things...

oh contrare my friend. i have no worries. but i do have a TRX swingarm i''ll sell you :thumbsup:

Nick the 450R does not use a progressive spring in the rear. and racers replace the aluminum swingarm because they don't hold up to abuse. yor correct about the forks but this thread is not about them


look i'm done here. continue to do what your gonna do. but i never said this was a bad idea. I only recomend revalving the shock for the small differances. especially when using a old outdated shock. do it don't do it. its your choice.

[ScottZJ]

:lmao:

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: the irony is the only thing out of date on the ATC suspension is the shock valving. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:


Well you know that it is 20 years old so the technology might be updated but the parts arent. So they still might need replacing for good specs.

[MagicJames]

So is there any way to use a trx carrier and axle or do you still need to get a r carrier and axle?

[Aussieduner]

So is there any way to use a trx carrier and axle or do you still need to get a r carrier and axle?

I cant comment on the TRX450 carrier as Brett and i have have both used 86R carriers and axles.

Aussie

[3on3250-R]

Hey Aussie, I know of the one problem you have not found yet. The 250R linkage is to wide to fit between the 450r swingarm. That Is why honda changed the style of the 400EX and 450R linkage. If you unhook the shock and lower the bike, the linkage bolt will hit the swingarm and stop your travel a few Inches before the shock travel runs out.

As for the linkage, I've tried every single set up their Is Inclucing Cr500 linkage on my new aluminum 450 I'm building. I talked to a few of the big aftermarket companies. I talked to John Houser directly. And one small angle change will affect the shock valving. I seriously doubt though, that you will notice the difference. If you were racing every weekend, you would probly buy an aftermarket shock anyway.

I would suggest you use 06-07 450R linkage & put spacers In on each side of the linkage so you can run the soft 250R shock. The 450R shocks are valved and sprung way stiff for a 3 wheeler. The bottom 250R shock bolt Is bigger than the 450 also just so you know that will need to be modded If you go that route.

Sorry to give you bad news, but I'm sure you will work It out.

Jason.

[Aussieduner]

Hey Aussie, I know of the one problem you have not found yet. The 250R linkage is to wide to fit between the 450r swingarm. That Is why honda changed the style of the 400EX and 450R linkage. If you unhook the shock and lower the bike, the linkage bolt will hit the swingarm and stop your travel a few Inches before the shock travel runs out.



Jason.

Hi Jason
I have compressed the trike down with considerable weight and the linkage is still not anywhere near hitting the swingarm.Bear in mind im running a TRX250 Durablue lowering link in the rear to adjust my ride height which gives me a rear linkage that is longer than a stock 250 or 450 dogbone.

Another small thing is the 450R chain slider, this needs to come across by 5mm (towards the frame), this is easily done by making a new locating hole in the rubber, i used a small hand router (dremmel) to make the hole required to sit over the locater on the swingarm.(see pic of adjusted location)For sprocket clearance when the motor is installed it needs a little removed from the front,belt sander makes a real tidy job of it.

[Eddie Pettengil]

how are you guys using the 450r shock. Mine looks like the resi will hit the exhaust pipe

[Aussieduner]

On my conversion i used the 250r shock but if the TRX shock is used you will need to remove the airbox and mounts and it will fit.

Tony

[Eddie Pettengil]

I have the airbox and mounts removed and the 450r shock is installed. When I put my (stock)exhaust pipe back in the shock resi is in it's path. Did anyone have to bend there pipe to get it to work.

[russhubs]

the exhaust is in the way in the other forum about using the 450r suspension he had to re-route the exhaust

[Red Rider]

this conversion is alot less work than red rider went through,,,That's true, but if you want this swingarm to be as long mine, you'll have to go through just as much work. :werd: