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Schlauncha
12-18-2009, 07:53 PM
It's just so tempting to look at what it would take to turbocharge or supercharge these little engines we have, since it could potentially double the power of a motor with only a simple bolt-on.

But if it only were that easy...

There are very few turbochargers meant for engines anywhere near this small, I think the smallest being of the Smart ForTwo and is rated for 240cc to 660cc engines. These turbochargers seem to be bought up as fast as they become available, because of the popularity of upgrading those Rhino's and other side-by-side atv's (Whatever the evolution of a JD Gator, that looks somewhat like a monster Golf Cart, is called). Their larger motors are the perfect size for those turbos I guess.

Thinking about small devices that convert between air pressure and mechanical motion, my mind comes to things like air powered tools, such as die grinders. I took one apart, the actual "motor" in it is only about the size of a C battery. That would be about perfect for these small motors! But when I back-drive it in my drill press at 3500 rpm, I could only get as much air to come backwards out of it, as about what comes from your nose during casual breathing. But I read online they're rated to go 25000 rpm, so maybe it's just a matter of needing to backdrive it faster. Installed, that would probably look like a 4'' diameter pulley coming off the camshaft, with a small toothed belt (like a miniature timing belt) driving like a 1" diameter pulley on the die grinder motor. It would be set up as a simple draw-through, so as to not mess up the carburetor. The housing I would machine for the die grinder motor to mount into, would take care of mounting to the intake flange on the head, and the carb would mount directly to it. This should keep things from changing position too much, for room considerations.

Well, if that can't displace enough, then what I've found through google is many people try to make these out of smog pumps from cars. These usually are a vane-style rotary mechanism that displaces air pretty decently, used I guess to cheat the emissions tests by diluting the exhaust fumes... strange that this was acceptable, but there's plenty of them out there. I dug one out of the back yard (literally) off an old rotary mazda, but it was rusted solid, and the thing was huge. Maybe on larger engines this would be okay, but there's just NO room on my atc70 for this. But IF one were in good shape, maybe a little smaller, and you had a larger vehicle it was going on, I could see using one of these.

Well right now I'm stumped. I will try running that die grinder the other direction in my lathe (my drill press could only turn it backwards) since maybe the motor only really works one way. I couldn't get it open to see what was going on inside, but it appears to be another vane-style motor like in the smog pumps.

Another option would be to make my own roots-style blower from aluminum. EDM could make some very precise profiles for the lobes, but I will have to check and see how thick the machines at school can cut. I would need to get a pair of gears first, to measure the distance between their centers at ideal mesh, so I could scale the lobes for ideal clearance. If material thickness is limited to about .5", it might be possible to make many pieces, and stack them on the same axle, and rely on the extreme precision of the EDM to make the parts all line up right. A person might even be able to add rubber inserts (made from automotive wiper blades) to work as apex seals on the lobes, if it becomes necessary to have a more airtight seal between things, and it is too tough to machine those clearances.

For the really small motors, like my ATC70, maybe an electric ducted fan would be a possible solution. A housing would have to be machined, but they could be the most bolt-on of all options, if bolted in-line between the carb and intake manifold (so long as it's okay to move the carb rearward by about 2"). Then just run power to the fan motor (which takes up to 14v) coming from that wire you can run a headlight off of. You could even put an adjustable resistor on there to control the boost pressure, but in reality I doubt you could barely get close to achieving a positive pressure in the manifold. But that might be enough to be a kick in the pants on one of these low-power motors. I mean, a new spark plug and a better air cleaner sure were noticeable. Plus the ducted fans I'm looking at, if you google GWS Ducted Fan, or look on eBay for them, are only in the price range of $15 shipped. Of course, it will take some machining to make a housing for them to bolt inline with the intake, but nothing too fancy at all.


Anyways just thought I'd start a discussion about this stuff, in case anyone else here has been thinking about, or made attempts at, making some forced induction system for their trike.

Mr. Richard
12-18-2009, 09:09 PM
atc70's are 3 hp,,, so doubling the hp would be half as much power as a new lifan,,, but you would get 34 extra coolness points over a lifan:D :D

Schlauncha
12-18-2009, 09:25 PM
And then when you upgrade to that new lifan, the same supercharger setup that fit the stock motor should fit the new one, so now you would have double the power of your new lifan. Needing only a slightly bigger drive pulley to match the larger cc's, and to bolt on the bigger carb that came with it, there would be almost no changes needed to it. There may be space considerations if getting a Lifan with a top-mounted starter motor though. So putting together a working supercharger, will be an upgrade to whatever motor you have, and can move between motors as needed, allowing for swaps to bigger motors in the future. I could start putting this together for my stock 70, and then later re-use it with the 90 I plan on getting.

Of course an issue becomes how you drive the supercharger, if it's electric it's no big deal to switch between motors, but if it's belt driven, it will take addon parts to the motor, something to bring a pulley off the camshaft end by means of a shaft, which must pass through an oil-retaining seal in a cover plate there. I've not been inside the head of one of these engines yet so I don't know where to begin estimating those possibilities. But an electric ducted fan is the least work, least expense, and easiest to switch between motors, if I can get enough output from it to make any decent change in manifold vacuum. Of course a coarse-mesh (like 1mm grid or bigger) screen will help ensure a fan blade doesn't crack off and go through the motor, a common fear associated with electric fan supercharging systems (which for car engines is largely a scam due to the unites they sell displacing air slower than the motor draws it in).

jcorkin
12-18-2009, 09:34 PM
i would just use a small shot of NOS, a 5 shot make your own nozzle and retard the timing by 3 degrees and spary when needed, cheap and very effective

jcorkin
12-18-2009, 09:35 PM
well a bigger carb and bigger jets in the carb as well.

Schlauncha
12-18-2009, 11:13 PM
Nitrous... I thought about it briefly but dismissed the idea. That would be a TINY system for sure, to properly make it a 5-shot. I'd be too afraid of trying to build one and have it turn out as a 10 or 15 shot and have it just forge the motor solid in an instant.

I know they make nitrous systems for rc motors of the 3.3cc size...

staples
12-19-2009, 01:09 AM
how about "THE TINNIE WINNIE TURBO"?

http://www.mjmturbos.com/images/SMALLEST.jpg

Schlauncha
12-19-2009, 01:23 AM
Yeah, that's the turbo of the Smart ForTwo I was talking about earlier. Thanks for the pic. Way too big for this motor, you really need 200cc minimum for that turbo to work right.

On the other hand I've seen superchargers for 3.3cc rc engines... Now to just harness 21 of those together, to supercharge my 70cc engine, and we'd be in business! Hmm... not quite...

Duner
12-19-2009, 02:29 AM
put it on Alcohol. Adds torque and horsepower throughout the RPM band.

I put my leaf blower on alky, and the dame thing found another gear...neighbors hate me, cause I can blow their garage cans over from 50 ft away.

Schlauncha
12-19-2009, 03:18 AM
Hmm, how about rc car nitro fuel? Sounds a little more mild than alcohol because it has all the oil added to it which should help the engine keep from forging itself together due to the added pressures and power involved. I don't drive alot, usually maybe 15 minutes at a time, so putting expensive fuel ($20/gallon) in it should be worth the increase in fun. I just gotta make sure to turn the vent on the tank cap OFF when I'm done, to keep the nitro from evaporating out of it. Also, only pouring in as much as I need and keeping most of it in the original container, should prolong the life of the nitro fuel.

Just an FYI, R/C nitro consists of these ingredients:
Nitromethane 15-25%
Methanol 55-70%
Oil (Castor or Synthetic) 15-20%

Some of you guys probably have more experience with exotic fuels and could give some input on what would happen trying to run a fuel such as this. I figure starting off with a very low nitro-content fuel (as it contains the oxygen-rich fuel) would be wise, but it's jumping in with both feet to try any nitro fuel, it could die in only a few revolutions due to unforseen differences in combustion. An early detonation of high pressure could even break a crankshaft in an instant, where on the other hand the seemingly okay operation could be plagued by hidden problems of the higher power and different chemical properties causing it to break down the oil and score the cylinder walls, and begin seriously damaging the engine's internals, even causing a valve to seize and hit the piston.

The bottom line is I have no clue how this fuel would work in a normal gasoline 4-stroke spark-ignition engine. The stuff could even start dieseling and end up with me having to resort to unscrewing the plug from the dieseling engine to stop it (since it's not a manual and I can't kill it with the transmission, and I wouldn't want to just turn the fuel off and let it run lean until it died for fear of damages).

I wouldn't try it unless I had a replacement motor ready to go in (which I might if *fingers crossed* my ebay auction goes well and I get some cash from it) or if people on here can give me advice on it that I can hold them somewhat accountable for, at least enough to scold them if my motor forges itself.

Schlauncha
12-19-2009, 03:31 AM
(it wouldn't let me edit, sorry for the double post)

IDEA BULB!
Cordless dust buster in my shop whose batteries hold no charge... time to find new use for your DC fan system of decent PSI and volume capabilities! I just hope when using a draw-through carb setup, that having the DC motor in an air/fuel environment does not lead to its brush sparks causing combustion within the manifold... A little creative sealing work with some fuel-resistant sealants should do the trick. At the very least I just love tearing mechanisms apart!

dansvan
12-19-2009, 02:05 PM
Turned down amr300.