350x rockers

[camoweasel]

I am thinking about dropping in an aftermarket cam; like a megacycle or webcam, of which are both hardwelded. On the powroll website, it states when using an aftermarket cam, hardened OR new oem rockers are reqiured. Are hardened rockers nessesary when using an aftermarket camshaft, or will new OEM rockers suffice? I asked this question on 3WW and got a few different answers. New OEM rockers from Honda are going for about 80 bucks while hardened rockers are going for about 110-120 dollars, plus core costs.

So far I am thinking about a megacycle grind 162-30 and a Wiesco 10.25 piston at the appropriate bore to help bump compression up a bit. I am looking for a nice power increase while keeping it relatively reliable, where I won't have to crack back into the engine for another 10-20 years.

[jensenracing77]

you will get many opinions on this. i have used many hard weld cams with stock rockers and never had a problem. the key is to keep the oil changed and the right weight. worm to hot weather and an air cooled 4 stroke you will have to run
20W50. in cold weather you can go to a 10W40. i had a similar setup in my 350X and ran 20w50 all year round. it will smoke a little on start up in the winter but won't hurt anything.

you are going to see people jump on what i just said but you will just have to go with the info you want.

[camoweasel]

you will get many opinions on this. i have used many hard weld cams with stock rockers and never had a problem. the key is to keep the oil changed and the right weight. worm to hot weather and an air cooled 4 stroke you will have to run
20W50. in cold weather you can go to a 10W40. i had a similar setup in my 350X and ran 20w50 all year round. it will smoke a little on start up in the winter but won't hurt anything.

you are going to see people jump on what i just said but you will just have to go with the info you want.

May I ask why it smoked alittle on start-up? I plan on new rings and valve seals so I hope it doesn't smoke? Today I stopped in at the local Honda dealer and asked the same question to the parts guy. He said you should be fine as long as you don't let it idle because there isn't enough oil flow??

[fncfmly]

I Just Went Through This Yes Get Your Rockers Hard Welded And Yes Get The Hd Springs Too If You Dont You Will Be Sorry I Got Webcam #213 Grind And Hd Springs Did Not Get The Rockers Hardened And Mess Up My New Cam And Rockers So I Had To Pay For Everthing Twice They Did Help Me Alittle On The Cost The Second Time

[camoweasel]

you are going to see people jump on what i just said but you will just have to go with the info you want.

That's the problem with the internet. There is a lot of bad information that gets circulated and it's hard trying to pick out the most reliable.

[jensenracing77]

the reason it smoked is because i had 20 50 in it in cold weather. in the summer it did not do that.
if you are at all concerned with the rockers i would go with the hardened rockers. there is nothing worse than being worried about something while you are riding.

when you rebuild this engine look real good at the oil pump. make sure it is in good condition. many cams go bad because of this and was thought it was because the rockers. also with most aftermarket cams (the manufacturers don't tell this much) don't sit and let it idle much. if you want to worm it up keep the rpm up a little higher than idle. also if you stop to talk to friends for more than a minute just shut it off. there is really not enough oil flow at idle for these cams

[jensenracing77]

lol, i just seen that you said about the idle first.

[camoweasel]

I appreciate all everyone's opinion and personal experiences. I welcome more because I'm still up in the air about what I should do. I think it's funny how some riders say "I've never had poblems" then there's the riders who say "yes, I have had problems". You wonder what is it that determines the engine's life course? Oil problems, or just really hard core abuse??
I myself use 15W-40 diesel rated oils like Rotella and Delo. They are loaded with tons of zinc and phosphorous and plenty of other anti-wear agents to help cam wear. I'm more of a weekend rider who gets out every now and then. When I do get out, I admit, I like to do some spirited riding BUT I never beat the living poop out of the engine. I know my engines capabilities and downfalls and know throttle control. I just checked service honda and new rockers are going for about 95 and hardsurfaced rockers from MC, are 62 a piece. I suppose if I'm going to do it right, I shouldn't cheap out BUT if I can do it safely with new OEM rockers, I would rather go that route.

[FlyingW]

The technical answer is this:

The rocker faces and the cam are hard chrome plated. This hard chrome plating is a wear item so its sacrificial. Sadly, the EPA has been tightening down the regulations on chroming and hard chroming as well because it is such a pollutant and the chemicals to do both are horrible for the planet. Once was a time when we could go down to the chrome shop and get things plated and the same goes for hard chrome plating but not so much anymore.

The replacement process for hard chrome is HVOF Applied Tungsten Carbide Cobalt Chrome which is far easier on the planet but just as expensive to have done because of the restrictions imposed by the EPA.

To answer your question Camo, if you are using new rockers on an aftermarket cam or an OEM cam for that matter, no need to have the rockers re-plated with hard chrome but if you have old used rockers on a new cam regardless if its aftermarket or OEM, then you would want either new rockers or re-plated rockers.

The key to remember the hard chrome plating on any surface is the wear surface and over time will wear off. The only way to know the wear condition of the hard chrome plating on your rockers or the cam requires a gizmo to electrically read the thickness and you would also need the manufacturing specs for that part to know what thickness it was plated to in the beginning.

Re-ground cams/rockers are nothing more than old worn out cams that are built back up and reground then re-plated with hard chrome but re-ground cams are not as durable as cams cast/machined/plated as one piece.

I hope all this makes sense and helps you out.

[camoweasel]

Thanks for the advise FW. I wasn't sure if the higher spring tension or harder cam surface would eat NEW rockers or not. The more and more I think about it, i'm actually starting to debate whether or not to do the whole cam thing or not and just stick with the new weisco piston. But at the same time I want the power haha!! I guess it all comes down to good lubrication.

[SWIGIN]

Stock rockers will be fine but will not last near as long as the hard welded ones....like I said on the other site...lol

[camoweasel]

Here's my current thought/idea. The more and more I think about it, I would just rather have the peace and comfort of knowing that I can get another 20 years out of this engine. I was looking at webcam's grind #180 which is just a "drop-in" cam that doesn't require HD valve springs. Now since this cam can use the OEM springs, with good quality oil, I would bet that this cam will easy on the rockers. By looking at the specs of the oem cam (compliments of megacycle), the drop in cam is still a nice bump up from the original. Any thoughts or ideas??

PS: Sorry I sound like broken record asking the same question over and over. I just want to find the best route to take with this project.

[FlyingW]

your plan sounds good camo. As with any motor, changing the oil is key to longevity. Using a quality oil is also just as important. If you use the dropin cam and your rockers are in good shape then you should be fine. Many guys change their oil after every ride and personaly thats a bit excessive but whatever works.

If you're going to pull the head and disassemble it, be sure to LAP your valves and change the valve stem seals. Also, don't overlook the cam chain. If you dont know the status of the chain, replace it while the motor is apart. The same holds true for the clutch plates and springs. Once the motor is put back in the frame, I absolutley detest having to pull it later for something I decided to put off or forgot about. Press on with pride and keep us informed.

[NINJA]

It's worth the extra money to go with hardened rockers, consider it preventative wrenching down the road. Besides, you should never drop in a fresh cam with used rockers anyway. Don't go with a 213 grind unless you plan on duning or racing. Don't put in a high lift cam without putting in HD valve springs, EVER! Catastrophic engine failure is no joke, it costs a ton of money or your health/life sometimes.

[ridetrikes250R]

It's worth the extra money to go with hardened rockers, consider it preventative wrenching down the road. Besides, you should never drop in a fresh cam with used rockers anyway. Don't go with a 213 grind unless you plan on duning or racing. Don't put in a high lift cam without putting in HD valve springs, EVER! Catastrophic engine failure is no joke, it costs a ton of money or your health/life sometimes.

i second this...

think it of this way, you can take a chance run it as it is, but chances are your rockers have pits in them, with a nice cam, those pits are going to lead to early death... so why waste your money on getting the cam you really dont want when you can build the engine you want the right way and enjoy the better reliability

[camoweasel]

Here's my current thought/idea. The more and more I think about it, I would just rather have the peace and comfort of knowing that I can get another 20 years out of this engine. I was looking at webcam's grind #180 which is just a "drop-in" cam that doesn't require HD valve springs. Now since this cam can use the OEM springs, with good quality oil, I would bet that this cam will easy on the rockers. By looking at the specs of the oem cam (compliments of megacycle), the drop in cam is still a nice bump up from the original. Any thoughts or ideas??

PS: Sorry I sound like broken record asking the same question over and over. I just want to find the best route to take with this project.

The 180 grind is webcam's bolt in cam. According to the site, it doesn't require stiffer springs. SO if this is cam is trully a drop-in cam, with no springs required, that would mean less ware-and-tare on the valve train right?? How much power would this cam make with a 10.25 piston?? Basically a new set of seals and to have the valves relapped would be all nessesary to run this cam??

[NINJA]

Oh yeah, the 180 cam with a 10.25 piston, rejetted, K&N air filter, and aftermarket exhaust, that 350X will wake right up after that! Yeah that one is drop in, but you'll still need fresh rockers and possibly springs. You'll need to measure the free length of your valve springs per manual specs, to determine if they're still good.

[camoweasel]

Oh yeah, the 180 cam with a 10.25 piston, rejetted, K&N air filter, and aftermarket exhaust, that 350X will wake right up after that! Yeah that one is drop in, but you'll still need fresh rockers and possibly springs. You'll need to measure the free length of your valve springs per manual specs, to determine if they're still good.

I see why new rockers would be important but do you mean getting new HD springs, or finding new OEM springs??

[NINJA]

You can use OEM springs with that cam.